tennis-forum.net
Promoting tennis discussion.

Main
Date: 23 Jan 2009 04:55:21
From: mimus
Subject: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
Has apparently been a real epic, through the first two sets, although ESPN
isn't showing it (no top seed or American involved) . . . .

Fuck.

--

Take a deep breath, take a walk, cool off, plot a bit, and serve again.





 
Date: 25 Jan 2009 14:22:08
From: suckyasimple
Subject: Re: Wozniacki-Dokic
Wozniacki - best ass in the women's draw, luscious tits, too.


Dokic - what's she whining and sobbing about? She gettin'
porked by two hot brothers!


 
Date: 23 Jan 2009 21:12:49
From: Whisper
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
mimus wrote:
> Has apparently been a real epic, through the first two sets, although ESPN
> isn't showing it (no top seed or American involved) . . . .
>
> Fuck.
>


Good match so far. Dokic striking the ball very well & not holding back
- making some errors but plenty of great deep/flat shots to the corners.

Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some errors
late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined. 2-2 in 3rd
& should go down to the wire.





  
Date: 23 Jan 2009 16:53:55
From: Sakari Lund
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:12:49 +1100, Whisper <beaver999@ozemail.com.au >
wrote:

>mimus wrote:
>> Has apparently been a real epic, through the first two sets, although ESPN
>> isn't showing it (no top seed or American involved) . . . .
>>
>> Fuck.
>>
>
>
>Good match so far. Dokic striking the ball very well & not holding back
>- making some errors but plenty of great deep/flat shots to the corners.
>
>Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some errors
>late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined. 2-2 in 3rd
>& should go down to the wire.

I thought Wozniacki would win too. This was a lot better from Dokic
than the previous match. She is not that far from her best. Good for
women's tennis to get her back.



   
Date: 23 Jan 2009 11:53:53
From: mimus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:53:55 +0200, Sakari Lund wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:12:49 +1100, Whisper <beaver999@ozemail.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>> mimus wrote:
>>
>>> Has apparently been a real epic, through the first two sets, although ESPN
>>> isn't showing it (no top seed or American involved) . . . .
>>>
>>> Fuck.
>>
>> Good match so far. Dokic striking the ball very well & not holding
>> back - making some errors but plenty of great deep/flat shots to the
>> corners.
>>
>> Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some errors
>> late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined. 2-2 in 3rd
>> & should go down to the wire.
>
> I thought Wozniacki would win too. This was a lot better from Dokic than
> the previous match. She is not that far from her best. Good for women's
> tennis to get her back.

She gave every impression of being the more experienced player out there,
patient and not getting flustered after losing the first set (which was
close, and she was already righting her ship during it).

The fourth-round match with the somewhat wild but powerful and aggressive
Kleybanova ought to be a gooder (unless Kleybanova's still blown then from
offing Ivanovic).

--

Take a deep breath, take a walk, cool off, plot a bit, and serve again.



    
Date: 24 Jan 2009 16:04:43
From: David W
Subject: Re: Wozniacki-Dokic
On Jan 25, 10:13=A0am, jingus <jin...@mindspring.com > wrote:
> DavidW wrote:
> > jingus wrote:
>
> >>you are talking about things that happened years ago. =A0dokic stopped
> >>playing and during this comeback attempt she had been losing *until*
> >>this tournament, so her results are quite out of the blue. =A0it is jus=
t
> >>not reasonable to expect that after not playing for several years that
> >>dokic would be able to show up on the scene again and not miss a beat.
>
> > No, but you are talking about _experience_ in big matches. Dokic has it=
. I
> > doubt she's forgotten the big matches she played years ago.
>
> there is a certain competitive edge that you get only through playing;
> one that you lose when you don't play. =A0if it were all as simply as you
> seem to think it is, players would have no difficulty making comebacks.
> the fact is that it is not easy to make comebacks. =A0and even the
> successful ones often take time. =A0for example, agassi had to work his
> way back into contention when he had dropped out of playing. =A0he didn't
> just pop back onto the scene and start winning grand slam tournaments
> right out of the gate.

You're talking about more than big-match experience there.


     
Date: 24 Jan 2009 18:09:14
From: jingus
Subject: Re: Wozniacki-Dokic
David W wrote:
> On Jan 25, 10:13 am, jingus <jin...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>there is a certain competitive edge that you get only through playing;
>>one that you lose when you don't play. if it were all as simply as you
>>seem to think it is, players would have no difficulty making comebacks.
>>the fact is that it is not easy to make comebacks. and even the
>>successful ones often take time. for example, agassi had to work his
>>way back into contention when he had dropped out of playing. he didn't
>>just pop back onto the scene and start winning grand slam tournaments
>>right out of the gate.
>
> You're talking about more than big-match experience there.
>

what i am talking about is when a person is the experience that counts
when a person is playing *today*. obviously dokic' "big match"
experience didn't help her much when she would losing matches until this
tournament. it is a ridiculous suggestion if what you are suggesting is
that dokic' "big match" experience helps her in the australian open
because it is a grand slam tournament, but the "big match" experience
didn't help her when she was losing in the tournaments that she played
before then.


      
Date: 25 Jan 2009 00:21:40
From: Marty Fremen
Subject: Re: Wozniacki-Dokic
jingus <jingus@mindspring.com > wrote:

> David W wrote:
>> On Jan 25, 10:13 am, jingus <jin...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>there is a certain competitive edge that you get only through playing;
>>>one that you lose when you don't play. if it were all as simply as you
>>>seem to think it is, players would have no difficulty making comebacks.
>>>the fact is that it is not easy to make comebacks. and even the
>>>successful ones often take time. for example, agassi had to work his
>>>way back into contention when he had dropped out of playing. he didn't
>>>just pop back onto the scene and start winning grand slam tournaments
>>>right out of the gate.
>>
>> You're talking about more than big-match experience there.
> >
>
> what i am talking about is when a person is the experience that counts
> when a person is playing *today*. obviously dokic' "big match"
> experience didn't help her much when she would losing matches until this
> tournament. it is a ridiculous suggestion if what you are suggesting is
> that dokic' "big match" experience helps her in the australian open
> because it is a grand slam tournament, but the "big match" experience
> didn't help her when she was losing in the tournaments that she played
> before then.


I suppose you could say that experience helps when you are coming back but
not when you are going out. If you have "lost it", you have lost it, but if
you are trying to "find it", then such factors can boost your impetus.


When you are going down the drain, clutching at straws is of little help.
But when you are (--complete this metaphor about rising performance in 15
words or less--)


       
Date: 25 Jan 2009 09:32:17
From:
Subject: Re: Wozniacki-Dokic
In article <Xns9B9E3ADA1BABC9A6@212.23.3.119 >, Marty@fremen.invalid (Marty
Fremen) wrote:

>
> When you are going down the drain, clutching at straws is of little
> help. But when you are (--complete this metaphor about rising
> performance in 15 words or less--)

...finding your way back the straw can turn into a ladder.

wg


    
Date: 24 Jan 2009 10:27:49
From:
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
In article <N82dneTk2MCIa-TUnZ2dnUVZ_sDinZ2d@giganews.com >,
tinmimus99@hotmail.com (mimus) wrote:

>
> She gave every impression of being the more experienced player out
> there,
> patient and not getting flustered after losing the first set (which
> was
> close, and she was already righting her ship during it).

Well, she *is* the more experienced player. Dokic was at the top of the
game for three years, in which time she played a GS qf and an sf, and beat
a number of top players. Wozniacki is really still only just beginning to
break through at that level.

>
> The fourth-round match with the somewhat wild but powerful and
> aggressive
> Kleybanova ought to be a gooder (unless Kleybanova's still blown
> then from
> offing Ivanovic).
>

Dokic has an extremely good chance of winning that one.

wg


     
Date: 24 Jan 2009 13:49:16
From: jingus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> In article <N82dneTk2MCIa-TUnZ2dnUVZ_sDinZ2d@giganews.com>,
> tinmimus99@hotmail.com (mimus) wrote:
>
>>She gave every impression of being the more experienced player out
>>there,
>>patient and not getting flustered after losing the first set (which
>>was
>>close, and she was already righting her ship during it).
>
> Well, she *is* the more experienced player. Dokic was at the top of the
> game for three years, in which time she played a GS qf and an sf, and beat
> a number of top players. Wozniacki is really still only just beginning to
> break through at that level.
>

i'm not sure that i agree with this assessment of dokic; she was out of
the game for several years while wozniacki has had more match play in
recent years. furthermore, dokic only started winning in this
tournament so her results are a big surprise.

now if by "experienced" you mean that dokic might have more experience
in life, you might have a point as dokic has apparently experienced a
lot of ups and downs in her life and is apparently coming back from
suffering bouts of depression. that kind of stuff can change one's
outlook in life which might give dokic a more mature view of life in
general, and of tennis in particular.

dokic might well have an advantage over wozniacki in terms of general
maturity, but she certainly does not have an advantage over wozniacki
in terms of "tennis experience".


      
Date: 24 Jan 2009 22:03:53
From: Sakari Lund
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:49:16 -0600, jingus <jingus@mindspring.com >
wrote:

>wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>> In article <N82dneTk2MCIa-TUnZ2dnUVZ_sDinZ2d@giganews.com>,
>> tinmimus99@hotmail.com (mimus) wrote:
>>
>>>She gave every impression of being the more experienced player out
>>>there,
>>>patient and not getting flustered after losing the first set (which
>>>was
>>>close, and she was already righting her ship during it).
>>
>> Well, she *is* the more experienced player. Dokic was at the top of the
>> game for three years, in which time she played a GS qf and an sf, and beat
>> a number of top players. Wozniacki is really still only just beginning to
>> break through at that level.
>>
>
>i'm not sure that i agree with this assessment of dokic; she was out of
>the game for several years while wozniacki has had more match play in
>recent years. furthermore, dokic only started winning in this
>tournament so her results are a big surprise.
>
>now if by "experienced" you mean that dokic might have more experience
>in life, you might have a point as dokic has apparently experienced a
>lot of ups and downs in her life and is apparently coming back from
>suffering bouts of depression. that kind of stuff can change one's
>outlook in life which might give dokic a more mature view of life in
>general, and of tennis in particular.
>
>dokic might well have an advantage over wozniacki in terms of general
>maturity, but she certainly does not have an advantage over wozniacki
>in terms of "tennis experience".

Huh? Of course Dokic has an advantage over Wozniacki in terms of
tennis experience. She has played in big matches, in latter stages of
slams. It's been a while, but she has it. Wozniacki doesn't have it at
all.



       
Date: 24 Jan 2009 16:26:45
From: jingus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
Sakari Lund wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:49:16 -0600, jingus <jingus@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
>>now if by "experienced" you mean that dokic might have more experience
>>in life, you might have a point as dokic has apparently experienced a
>>lot of ups and downs in her life and is apparently coming back from
>>suffering bouts of depression. that kind of stuff can change one's
>>outlook in life which might give dokic a more mature view of life in
>>general, and of tennis in particular.
>>
>>dokic might well have an advantage over wozniacki in terms of general
>>maturity, but she certainly does not have an advantage over wozniacki
>>in terms of "tennis experience".
>
> Huh? Of course Dokic has an advantage over Wozniacki in terms of
> tennis experience. She has played in big matches, in latter stages of
> slams. It's been a while, but she has it. Wozniacki doesn't have it at
> all.
>

you are talking about things that happened years ago. dokic stopped
playing and during this comeback attempt she had been losing *until*
this tournament, so her results are quite out of the blue. it is just
not reasonable to expect that after not playing for several years that
dokic would be able to show up on the scene again and not miss a beat.

the fact that dokic' tennis experience is from years ago and is not
recent is why it is of so little value today when playing against an
opponent (wozniacki) who has not only been playing recently, but has
also been *winning* recently.


        
Date: 25 Jan 2009 13:32:53
From: Whisper
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
jingus wrote:
> Sakari Lund wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:49:16 -0600, jingus <jingus@mindspring.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> now if by "experienced" you mean that dokic might have more experience
>>> in life, you might have a point as dokic has apparently experienced a
>>> lot of ups and downs in her life and is apparently coming back from
>>> suffering bouts of depression. that kind of stuff can change one's
>>> outlook in life which might give dokic a more mature view of life in
>>> general, and of tennis in particular.
>>>
>>> dokic might well have an advantage over wozniacki in terms of general
>>> maturity, but she certainly does not have an advantage over wozniacki
>>> in terms of "tennis experience".
>>
>> Huh? Of course Dokic has an advantage over Wozniacki in terms of
>> tennis experience. She has played in big matches, in latter stages of
>> slams. It's been a while, but she has it. Wozniacki doesn't have it at
>> all.
>>
>
> you are talking about things that happened years ago. dokic stopped
> playing and during this comeback attempt she had been losing *until*
> this tournament, so her results are quite out of the blue. it is just
> not reasonable to expect that after not playing for several years that
> dokic would be able to show up on the scene again and not miss a beat.
>
> the fact that dokic' tennis experience is from years ago and is not
> recent is why it is of so little value today when playing against an
> opponent (wozniacki) who has not only been playing recently, but has
> also been *winning* recently.


Disagree. Her cumulative experience was most definitely a factor in her
win.


         
Date: 24 Jan 2009 22:05:09
From: jingus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
Whisper wrote:
> jingus wrote:
>
>> you are talking about things that happened years ago. dokic stopped
>> playing and during this comeback attempt she had been losing *until*
>> this tournament, so her results are quite out of the blue. it is just
>> not reasonable to expect that after not playing for several years that
>> dokic would be able to show up on the scene again and not miss a beat.
>>
>> the fact that dokic' tennis experience is from years ago and is not
>> recent is why it is of so little value today when playing against an
>> opponent (wozniacki) who has not only been playing recently, but has
>> also been *winning* recently.
>
> Disagree. Her cumulative experience was most definitely a factor in her
> win.
>

one thing that i find sorely missing in the comments posted on this
newsgroup is the ability to back up statements with facts. last year,
dokic was knocking around losing to top-500 ranked players. last year
dokic was a former #4 ranked player, just as she is now. while dokic
was losing to top-500 players last year, wozniacki (who is young and
hot-looking) was playing top-10 ranked players.

what you need to do is to explain why this "cumulative experience"
didn't help dokic when she was losing to top-500 players last year.
wozniacki clearly had to be considered the favorite in her match
against dokic. maybe dokic really is back in form but it is too early
to tell whether that is the case, or whether she is just on an
emotion-fueled hot streak that will peter out after this tournament.
on any account, her run at this year's australian open is a big
surprise.


          
Date: 25 Jan 2009 16:11:51
From: Whisper
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
jingus wrote:
> Whisper wrote:
>> jingus wrote:
>>
>>> you are talking about things that happened years ago. dokic stopped
>>> playing and during this comeback attempt she had been losing *until*
>>> this tournament, so her results are quite out of the blue. it is just
>>> not reasonable to expect that after not playing for several years that
>>> dokic would be able to show up on the scene again and not miss a beat.
>>>
>>> the fact that dokic' tennis experience is from years ago and is not
>>> recent is why it is of so little value today when playing against an
>>> opponent (wozniacki) who has not only been playing recently, but has
>>> also been *winning* recently.
>>
>> Disagree. Her cumulative experience was most definitely a factor in
>> her win.
> >
>
> one thing that i find sorely missing in the comments posted on this
> newsgroup is the ability to back up statements with facts. last year,
> dokic was knocking around losing to top-500 ranked players. last year
> dokic was a former #4 ranked player, just as she is now. while dokic
> was losing to top-500 players last year, wozniacki (who is young and
> hot-looking) was playing top-10 ranked players.
>
> what you need to do is to explain why this "cumulative experience"
> didn't help dokic when she was losing to top-500 players last year.
> wozniacki clearly had to be considered the favorite in her match
> against dokic.


She had depression/personal problems - duh.


           
Date: 25 Jan 2009 01:24:30
From: jingus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
Whisper wrote:
> jingus wrote:
>
>> what you need to do is to explain why this "cumulative experience"
>> didn't help dokic when she was losing to top-500 players last year.
>> wozniacki clearly had to be considered the favorite in her match
>> against dokic.
>
> She had depression/personal problems - duh.
>

exactly. and based on everything that i have read, including dokic'
own statements, she has a new outlook on life after having gone through
all the personal turmoil of recent years. it appears to me that it is
this new outlook on life that has more to do with dokic' sudden good
fortunes. i think that you are saying the same thing but don't want to
admit it.


        
Date: 24 Jan 2009 23:02:31
From: Marty Fremen
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
jingus <jingus@mindspring.com > wrote:

> Sakari Lund wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:49:16 -0600, jingus <jingus@mindspring.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Huh? Of course Dokic has an advantage over Wozniacki in terms of
>> tennis experience. She has played in big matches, in latter stages of
>> slams. It's been a while, but she has it. Wozniacki doesn't have it at
>> all.
>
> you are talking about things that happened years ago.
..
> the fact that dokic' tennis experience is from years ago and is not
> recent is why it is of so little value today when playing against an
> opponent (wozniacki) who has not only been playing recently, but has
> also been *winning* recently.

I disagree, the fact that she was once out there as a relative unknown
beating top ten players in major tournaments means she knows (*knows*
rather than "hopes" or "believes") that it is something which is possible,
not just in an abstract sense but for her personally. And although she's
had a few years of being completely out to lunch, she will still remember
how it felt being in those situations, and how she coped with it. That's
not just life experience but tennis experience that can make a difference,
helping her maintain her confidence and not go into panic mode when the
going gets tough.



        
Date: 25 Jan 2009 09:50:44
From: DavidW
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
jingus wrote:
> Sakari Lund wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:49:16 -0600, jingus <jingus@mindspring.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> now if by "experienced" you mean that dokic might have more
>>> experience in life, you might have a point as dokic has apparently
>>> experienced a lot of ups and downs in her life and is apparently
>>> coming back from suffering bouts of depression. that kind of stuff
>>> can change one's outlook in life which might give dokic a more
>>> mature view of life in general, and of tennis in particular.
>>>
>>> dokic might well have an advantage over wozniacki in terms of
>>> general maturity, but she certainly does not have an advantage over
>>> wozniacki in terms of "tennis experience".
>>
>> Huh? Of course Dokic has an advantage over Wozniacki in terms of
>> tennis experience. She has played in big matches, in latter stages of
>> slams. It's been a while, but she has it. Wozniacki doesn't have it
>> at all.
>>
>
> you are talking about things that happened years ago. dokic stopped
> playing and during this comeback attempt she had been losing *until*
> this tournament, so her results are quite out of the blue. it is just
> not reasonable to expect that after not playing for several years that
> dokic would be able to show up on the scene again and not miss a beat.

No, but you are talking about _experience_ in big matches. Dokic has it. I
doubt she's forgotten the big matches she played years ago.





         
Date: 25 Jan 2009 13:35:58
From: Whisper
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
DavidW wrote:
> jingus wrote:
>> Sakari Lund wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:49:16 -0600, jingus <jingus@mindspring.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> now if by "experienced" you mean that dokic might have more
>>>> experience in life, you might have a point as dokic has apparently
>>>> experienced a lot of ups and downs in her life and is apparently
>>>> coming back from suffering bouts of depression. that kind of stuff
>>>> can change one's outlook in life which might give dokic a more
>>>> mature view of life in general, and of tennis in particular.
>>>>
>>>> dokic might well have an advantage over wozniacki in terms of
>>>> general maturity, but she certainly does not have an advantage over
>>>> wozniacki in terms of "tennis experience".
>>> Huh? Of course Dokic has an advantage over Wozniacki in terms of
>>> tennis experience. She has played in big matches, in latter stages of
>>> slams. It's been a while, but she has it. Wozniacki doesn't have it
>>> at all.
>>>
>> you are talking about things that happened years ago. dokic stopped
>> playing and during this comeback attempt she had been losing *until*
>> this tournament, so her results are quite out of the blue. it is just
>> not reasonable to expect that after not playing for several years that
>> dokic would be able to show up on the scene again and not miss a beat.
>
> No, but you are talking about _experience_ in big matches. Dokic has it. I
> doubt she's forgotten the big matches she played years ago.
>
>
>


Correct. Date came back after 11 yrs & nearly beat world no.25 in 1st
rd 64 46 68. I'm sure her experience helped her get that close even at
age 39.

Sampras & Agassi still have a lot of experience that would help them
beat lower ranked players today.



          
Date: 25 Jan 2009 09:32:18
From:
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
In article <497bd017$0$14846$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au >,
beaver999@ozemail.com.au (Whisper) wrote:

>
> Correct. Date came back after 11 yrs & nearly beat world no.25 in
> 1st rd 64 46 68. I'm sure her experience helped her get that close
> even at age 39.
>
> Sampras & Agassi still have a lot of experience that would help
> them beat lower ranked players today.
>

Or, to take another example, Navratilova beating Panova (then in the top
20) on grass at Eastbourne in 2002. She said at the time she was "drawing
on the memory banks".

wg


           
Date: 25 Jan 2009 13:02:01
From: Georgiana Gates
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> In article <497bd017$0$14846$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
> beaver999@ozemail.com.au (Whisper) wrote:
>
>> Correct. Date came back after 11 yrs & nearly beat world no.25 in
>> 1st rd 64 46 68. I'm sure her experience helped her get that close
>> even at age 39.
>>
>> Sampras & Agassi still have a lot of experience that would help
>> them beat lower ranked players today.
>>
>
> Or, to take another example, Navratilova beating Panova (then in the top
> 20) on grass at Eastbourne in 2002. She said at the time she was "drawing
> on the memory banks".
>
> wg
IIRC, Panova wasn't expecting a left-handed serve-and-volleyer. At
least, that's what she said.


            
Date: 25 Jan 2009 16:12:05
From: jingus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
Georgiana Gates wrote:
> wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Or, to take another example, Navratilova beating Panova (then in the
>> top 20) on grass at Eastbourne in 2002. She said at the time she was
>> "drawing on the memory banks".
>
> IIRC, Panova wasn't expecting a left-handed serve-and-volleyer. At
> least, that's what she said.
>

the introduction of navratilova's victory over panova is incredibly off
the mark in the context of the present discussion. panova was never
remotely what you could call a "top" women's tennis player. so there is
no comparison between defeating a player like panova and defeating a
player like wozniacki (who, btw, is young and hot-looking i might add).

so, yes, i can accept the argument that navratilova's experience helped
her in her win against panova. but even at that, navratilova had been
playing competitively at the time. granted, she was playing doubles,
but given her lengthy experience and knowledge that she has of the game,
it is not hard to see that she could bridge the difference between her
doubles play to her singles play, especially when playing against a
lower-tier opponent.

but had navratilova played against a stronger opponent, she would have
faced greater difficulties. first, there are the challenges required to
make the adjustments that you have to make when playing a tougher
opponent. second, navratilova would have inevitably hit the physical
limiations that came with her age. i don't doubt that navratilova could
think her way through to figure out what things she needed to do in a
match. but the problem is that i don't know that she would always be
able to get her body to do them.

i believe that dokic is around 25, so physical limitations of age are
not a problem for her. but in defeating a player like wozniacki (who,
btw, is young and hot-looking), she was facing the kind of challenge
that she did not face when she was playing top-500 players.

there is no comparison between defeating a player like wozniacki (who is
young and hot-looking) and defeating a player like panova.


            
Date: 25 Jan 2009 21:18:50
From: Sakari Lund
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:02:01 -0600, Georgiana Gates
<ramrod@hal-pc.org > wrote:

>wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>> In article <497bd017$0$14846$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
>> beaver999@ozemail.com.au (Whisper) wrote:
>>
>>> Correct. Date came back after 11 yrs & nearly beat world no.25 in
>>> 1st rd 64 46 68. I'm sure her experience helped her get that close
>>> even at age 39.
>>>
>>> Sampras & Agassi still have a lot of experience that would help
>>> them beat lower ranked players today.
>>>
>>
>> Or, to take another example, Navratilova beating Panova (then in the top
>> 20) on grass at Eastbourne in 2002. She said at the time she was "drawing
>> on the memory banks".
>>
>> wg
>IIRC, Panova wasn't expecting a left-handed serve-and-volleyer. At
>least, that's what she said.

LOL

"I didn't know her, I didn't know what to expect..."





         
Date: 24 Jan 2009 17:13:57
From: jingus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
DavidW wrote:
> jingus wrote:
>
>>you are talking about things that happened years ago. dokic stopped
>>playing and during this comeback attempt she had been losing *until*
>>this tournament, so her results are quite out of the blue. it is just
>>not reasonable to expect that after not playing for several years that
>>dokic would be able to show up on the scene again and not miss a beat.
>
> No, but you are talking about _experience_ in big matches. Dokic has it. I
> doubt she's forgotten the big matches she played years ago.
>

there is a certain competitive edge that you get only through playing;
one that you lose when you don't play. if it were all as simply as you
seem to think it is, players would have no difficulty making comebacks.
the fact is that it is not easy to make comebacks. and even the
successful ones often take time. for example, agassi had to work his
way back into contention when he had dropped out of playing. he didn't
just pop back onto the scene and start winning grand slam tournaments
right out of the gate.


          
Date: 24 Jan 2009 17:47:03
From: David W
Subject: Re: Wozniacki-Dokic
On Jan 25, 11:56=A0am, jingus <jin...@mindspring.com > wrote:
> wen...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> > In article <5OGdndj0j_kpPebUnZ2dnUVZ_qnin...@earthlink.com>,
> > jin...@mindspring.com (jingus) wrote:
>
> >>there is a certain competitive edge that you get only through
> >>playing;
> >>one that you lose when you don't play. =A0if it were all as simply as
> >>you
> >>seem to think it is, players would have no difficulty making
> >>comebacks.
> >>the fact is that it is not easy to make comebacks. =A0and even the
> >>successful ones often take time. =A0for example, agassi had to work
> >>his
> >>way back into contention when he had dropped out of playing. =A0he
> >>didn't
> >>just pop back onto the scene and start winning grand slam
> >>tournaments
> >>right out of the gate.
>
> > That's match toughness; not experience.
>
> i am getting the impression that people are having a difficult time
> understanding what "experience" really means. =A0there is current
> experience

recent, not current.

> and there is past experience. =A0in the present, current
> experience is a lot more useful than past experience.

'past experience' is a redundant expression. All experience is past.

> the reason being
> is that there are the fine points of experience that get rusty when you
> haven't done something for a while.

But it is not the same as a young player who's never been in that
situation before. Dokic will remember her past big matches and that
will help, even if not as much as it would have a few years ago.

> granted, past experience can help
> accelerate the process of acquiring new current experience,

Cut out the past/new crap. She has experience in big matches. That
will help.

> but that
> doesn't happen right out of the gate.
>
> let me give you a case in point.

No, let's not. I can't be bothered reading further.



          
Date: 24 Jan 2009 18:21:06
From:
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
In article <5OGdndj0j_kpPebUnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@earthlink.com >,
jingus@mindspring.com (jingus) wrote:

>
> there is a certain competitive edge that you get only through
> playing;
> one that you lose when you don't play. if it were all as simply as
> you
> seem to think it is, players would have no difficulty making
> comebacks.
> the fact is that it is not easy to make comebacks. and even the
> successful ones often take time. for example, agassi had to work
> his
> way back into contention when he had dropped out of playing. he
> didn't
> just pop back onto the scene and start winning grand slam
> tournaments
> right out of the gate.

That's match toughness; not experience.

wg


           
Date: 24 Jan 2009 18:56:47
From: jingus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> In article <5OGdndj0j_kpPebUnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> jingus@mindspring.com (jingus) wrote:
>
>>there is a certain competitive edge that you get only through
>>playing;
>>one that you lose when you don't play. if it were all as simply as
>>you
>>seem to think it is, players would have no difficulty making
>>comebacks.
>>the fact is that it is not easy to make comebacks. and even the
>>successful ones often take time. for example, agassi had to work
>>his
>>way back into contention when he had dropped out of playing. he
>>didn't
>>just pop back onto the scene and start winning grand slam
>>tournaments
>>right out of the gate.
>
> That's match toughness; not experience.
>

i am getting the impression that people are having a difficult time
understanding what "experience" really means. there is current
experience and there is past experience. in the present, current
experience is a lot more useful than past experience. the reason being
is that there are the fine points of experience that get rusty when you
haven't done something for a while. granted, past experience can help
accelerate the process of acquiring new current experience, but that
doesn't happen right out of the gate.

let me give you a case in point. let's say someone had past experience
playing, say, the piano. then they go a number of years and don't play.
it strains credulity to believe that a person can restart playing after
years of non-play and start playing the complete set of chopin's
ballades right out of the gate. it's going to take some time. granted,
it probably won't take as long as it would take if he had never played,
but you can't expect someone to be a concert pianist right out of the
gate just because someone has "past experience" in it.

it's the same thing with tennis, or any other high skill activity. it's
easy for people on this newsgroup to comment on how simple one thing or
another should be because most of you haven't actually tried doing stuff
yourselves. but if you actually did try to do the stuff that you talk
about, you would realize that it isn't as easy as you think it is.


            
Date: 25 Jan 2009 13:43:36
From: Whisper
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
jingus wrote:
> wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>> In article <5OGdndj0j_kpPebUnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>> jingus@mindspring.com (jingus) wrote:
>>
>>> there is a certain competitive edge that you get only through playing;
>>> one that you lose when you don't play. if it were all as simply as you
>>> seem to think it is, players would have no difficulty making comebacks.
>>> the fact is that it is not easy to make comebacks. and even the
>>> successful ones often take time. for example, agassi had to work his
>>> way back into contention when he had dropped out of playing. he didn't
>>> just pop back onto the scene and start winning grand slam tournaments
>>> right out of the gate.
>>
>> That's match toughness; not experience.
>>
>
> i am getting the impression that people are having a difficult time
> understanding what "experience" really means.


Experience is experience - everyone gets it by default. Dokic has had a
lot more than Wozzie. It's like riding a bike - you never lose experience.

Wozzie was more match tough, but hasn't had the same level of experience
so was unsure how to handle certain situations.

Wozzie would have gained some experience from this loss she can use next
time she's in a similar situation.


    
Date: 24 Jan 2009 09:01:13
From: DavidW
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
mimus wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:53:55 +0200, Sakari Lund wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:12:49 +1100, Whisper
>> <beaver999@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> mimus wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has apparently been a real epic, through the first two sets,
>>>> although ESPN isn't showing it (no top seed or American involved)
>>>> . . . .
>>>>
>>>> Fuck.
>>>
>>> Good match so far. Dokic striking the ball very well & not holding
>>> back - making some errors but plenty of great deep/flat shots to the
>>> corners.
>>>
>>> Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some
>>> errors late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined.
>>> 2-2 in 3rd & should go down to the wire.
>>
>> I thought Wozniacki would win too. This was a lot better from Dokic
>> than the previous match. She is not that far from her best. Good for
>> women's tennis to get her back.
>
> She gave every impression of being the more experienced player out
> there, patient and not getting flustered after losing the first set
> (which was close, and she was already righting her ship during it).
>
> The fourth-round match with the somewhat wild but powerful and
> aggressive Kleybanova ought to be a gooder (unless Kleybanova's still
> blown then from offing Ivanovic).

I only saw a bit of the match. Kleybanova played pretty well. Plenty of power,
a good scrambler and she made some spectacular lunge volleys. She's hard to get
the ball past. A few wild shots, but there were a lot of long rallies so I
think overall her groundstrokes are solid.

The scheduling will be interesting. In fairness, with the final at night the
top few seeds are entitled to at least one night match before the semis, but I
don't think they'll get it for as long as Dokic is winning.





     
Date: 24 Jan 2009 22:50:07
From: Sakari Lund
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:01:13 +1100, "DavidW" <no@email.provided >
wrote:

>The scheduling will be interesting. In fairness, with the final at night the
>top few seeds are entitled to at least one night match before the semis, but I
>don't think they'll get it for as long as Dokic is winning.

They had night sessions on three courts, so more players had the
chance for night matches, but that seemd to be only on Friday and
Saturday.





     
Date: 23 Jan 2009 17:26:51
From: mimus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:01:13 +1100, DavidW wrote:

> mimus wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:53:55 +0200, Sakari Lund wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:12:49 +1100, Whisper
>>> <beaver999@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> mimus wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Has apparently been a real epic, through the first two sets,
>>>>> although ESPN isn't showing it (no top seed or American involved)
>>>>> . . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> Fuck.
>>>>
>>>> Good match so far. Dokic striking the ball very well & not holding
>>>> back - making some errors but plenty of great deep/flat shots to the
>>>> corners.
>>>>
>>>> Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some
>>>> errors late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined.
>>>> 2-2 in 3rd & should go down to the wire.
>>>
>>> I thought Wozniacki would win too. This was a lot better from Dokic
>>> than the previous match. She is not that far from her best. Good for
>>> women's tennis to get her back.
>>
>> She gave every impression of being the more experienced player out
>> there, patient and not getting flustered after losing the first set
>> (which was close, and she was already righting her ship during it).
>>
>> The fourth-round match with the somewhat wild but powerful and
>> aggressive Kleybanova ought to be a gooder (unless Kleybanova's still
>> blown then from offing Ivanovic).
>
> I only saw a bit of the match. Kleybanova played pretty well. Plenty of power,
> a good scrambler and she made some spectacular lunge volleys. She's hard to get
> the ball past. A few wild shots, but there were a lot of long rallies so I
> think overall her groundstrokes are solid.

_Powerful_, full-body shots.

Came close to knockin' the net down a couple of times.

> The scheduling will be interesting. In fairness, with the final at night the
> top few seeds are entitled to at least one night match before the semis, but I
> don't think they'll get it for as long as Dokic is winning.

Hey, all she needs to do is knock off Kleybanova and then (probably)
Safina, Jankovic and Serena, and she's bagged the AO.

--

Take a deep breath, take a walk, cool off, plot a bit, and serve again.




    
Date: 23 Jan 2009 22:06:33
From: Sakari Lund
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:53:53 -0500, mimus <tinmimus99@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:53:55 +0200, Sakari Lund wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:12:49 +1100, Whisper <beaver999@ozemail.com.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> mimus wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has apparently been a real epic, through the first two sets, although ESPN
>>>> isn't showing it (no top seed or American involved) . . . .
>>>>
>>>> Fuck.
>>>
>>> Good match so far. Dokic striking the ball very well & not holding
>>> back - making some errors but plenty of great deep/flat shots to the
>>> corners.
>>>
>>> Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some errors
>>> late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined. 2-2 in 3rd
>>> & should go down to the wire.
>>
>> I thought Wozniacki would win too. This was a lot better from Dokic than
>> the previous match. She is not that far from her best. Good for women's
>> tennis to get her back.
>
>She gave every impression of being the more experienced player out there,
>patient and not getting flustered after losing the first set (which was
>close, and she was already righting her ship during it).

OTOH it is not easy for 18-year old girl, when there are 15 000 people
rooting for her opponent.



  
Date: 23 Jan 2009 07:05:24
From:
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
In article <49799828$0$9503$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au >,
beaver999@ozemail.com.au (Whisper) wrote:

> Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some
> errors late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined.
> 2-2 in 3rd & should go down to the wire.

Dokic really seems to have her old intensity back. Good to see.

wg


   
Date: 23 Jan 2009 13:14:46
From: Dave Hazelwood
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:05:24 -0600, wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In article <49799828$0$9503$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
>beaver999@ozemail.com.au (Whisper) wrote:
>
>> Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some
>> errors late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined.
>> 2-2 in 3rd & should go down to the wire.
>
>Dokic really seems to have her old intensity back. Good to see.
>
>wg


yes. she was very nervous though and it showed but i guess that is
understandable.


    
Date: 23 Jan 2009 12:26:53
From:
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
In article <okgjn4dtbla8r324pec0n8l1qh95hp25u5@4ax.com >,
the_big_kahuna@mailcity.com (Dave Hazelwood) wrote:

>
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:05:24 -0600, wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk
> wrote:
>
> >In article
> <49799828$0$9503$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
> >beaver999@ozemail.com.au (Whisper) wrote:
> >
> >> Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some
> >> errors late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very
> determined. >> 2-2 in 3rd & should go down to the wire.
> >
> >Dokic really seems to have her old intensity back. Good to see.
> >
> >wg
>
>
> yes. she was very nervous though and it showed but i guess that is
> understandable.

Absolutely - you could see it especially in the last few points. But she
stayed focused.

wg


  
Date: 23 Jan 2009 07:02:41
From: mimus
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:12:49 +1100, Whisper wrote:

> mimus wrote:
>
>> Has apparently been a real epic, through the first two sets, although ESPN
>> isn't showing it (no top seed or American involved) . . . .
>>
>> Fuck.
>
> Good match so far. Dokic striking the ball very well & not holding back
> - making some errors but plenty of great deep/flat shots to the corners.
>
> Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some errors
> late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined. 2-2 in 3rd
> & should go down to the wire.

Well, Ivanovic-Kleybanova turned out to be an epic, too.

Maybe Tennis Channel will re-run Wozniacki-Dokic.

--

Take a deep breath, take a walk, cool off, plot a bit, and serve again.



   
Date: 23 Jan 2009 10:48:57
From: Javier Gonzalez
Subject: Re: [AO] Wozniacki-Dokic
mimus <tinmimus99@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:12:49 +1100, Whisper wrote:
>
>> mimus wrote:
>>
>>> Has apparently been a real epic, through the first two sets, although ESPN
>>> isn't showing it (no top seed or American involved) . . . .
>>>
>>> Fuck.
>>
>> Good match so far. Dokic striking the ball very well & not holding back
>> - making some errors but plenty of great deep/flat shots to the corners.
>>
>> Before the match I thought Wozzie would win, but she made some errors
>> late in 2nd set (inexperience?) & Dokic is very determined. 2-2 in 3rd
>> & should go down to the wire.
>
> Well, Ivanovic-Kleybanova turned out to be an epic, too.

Epic fail, you mean? ;)

(what was it, five, six breaks in a row?)


 
Date: 23 Jan 2009 02:07:28
From: Ka
Subject: Re: Wozniacki-Dokic
http://channelsurfing.net/
http://watchtheheat.blogspot.com/
http://www.ura-mitrovica.ucoz.com/
http://www.atdhe.net/
http://www.tennisform.com/