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Date: 23 Jan 2009 02:59:10
From: Broons Bane
Subject: Durie/Bradnam, Female Player's weight
There was an interesting discussion about female tennis players wait
yesterday on Eurosport between Chris Bradman and Jo Durie. Apparently
Roger Rashid had made a statement that some female tennis players were
not in good shape.

Jo Durie was quite defensive about this and cited David Nalbandian as
an example that some men aren't in shape either. (Incidentally, Jo
Durie has always been a bit chubby, and especially now, so I guess she
is biased)

It's an interesting question. Women have more body fat anyway, but I
don't think that explains why some female players are indeed out of
shape. You rarely see it in other female athletes. Citing David
Nalbandian doesn't really help the argument. He is clearly out of
shape, but I can't really name any other male players who are similar.

Kleybanova, for example, looks particularly out of shape for a woman
who is number 29 in the world.

Women having extra body fat aside, I think it is probably because the
men's game is so fast and powerful that you simply couldn't get away
with carrying too much extra weight and still be competitive.

Your thoughts?




 
Date: 23 Jan 2009 15:14:04
From: topspin
Subject: Re: Durie/Bradnam, Female Player's weight
On 23 Jan, 13:05, wen...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> In article
> <0d296450-c085-462b-a533-daaa8972e...@p23g2000prp.googlegroups.com>,
>
> newsgrou...@yahoo.com (Broons Bane) wrote:
>
> > There was an interesting discussion about female tennis players wait
> > yesterday on Eurosport between Chris Bradman and Jo Durie. =A0
> > Apparently
> > Roger Rashid had made a statement that some female tennis players
> > were
> > not in good shape.
>
> Yeah, I came in at the end of that discussion.
>
>
>
> > Jo Durie was quite defensive about this and cited David Nalbandian
> > as
> > an example that some men aren't in shape either. =A0(Incidentally, Jo
> > Durie has always been a bit chubby, and especially now, so I guess
> > she
> > is biased)
>
> She's doubly biased, since she also helps coach some of the British
> players, and until last year the British coaches seemed to largely ignore
> fitness issues. When I went around Eastbourne in 2007 you could pick out
> the Brit players in a second - they almost all looked like pale, flabby
> schoolgirls rather than professional athletes. In 2008, all changed: they
> all looked *much* fitter and you could see muscles; it wasn't so easy to
> pick them out of a crowd.
>
>
>
> > It's an interesting question. =A0Women have more body fat anyway, but
> > I
> > don't think that explains why some female players are indeed out of
> > shape. =A0You rarely see it in other female athletes. =A0Citing David
> > Nalbandian doesn't really help the argument. =A0He is clearly out of
> > shape, but I can't really name any other male players who are
> > similar.
>
> Other female athletes tend to be in sports where body type plays a part i=
n
> being selected to do it - runners tend to be small and light, shot
> putteers tend to be big and heavy. Tennis is rare in being open to many
> body types (although height is of course an advantage, mostly).
>
>
>
> > Kleybanova, for example, looks particularly out of shape for a woman
> > who is number 29 in the world.
>
> Kleybanova does. Her coach apparently claims it's "puppy fat" (cue Alan
> Ayckbourn, in Intimate Exchnages, "I never saw a puppy that shape."). But
> if you look at her covering the court against Ivanovic, she's clearly not
> as unfit as all that. I'd say she could stand to lose some weight and so
> could Cohen-Aloro, last time I saw her, and Lisa Raymond these days looks
> ridiculously overweight (and note that her doubles results when she's not
> playing with Sam Stosur show it). There was another player, whose name I'=
m
> blanking on, who was definitely overweight, but he some legitimate medica=
l
> condition. When you go around a tournament live, you'll see that the
> number of players who look unfit is really very, very small.
>
>
>
> > Women having extra body fat aside, I think it is probably because
> > the
> > men's game is so fast and powerful that you simply couldn't get away
> > with carrying too much extra weight and still be competitive.
>
> > Your thoughts?
>
> I don't think men's body types vary quite as much as women's. Just look a=
t
> VW vs SW - they're *sisters*, and yet their body types are completely
> different. Also, as you said to begin with, men's bodies typically are
> lower in body fat pct anyway, and I assume they lay down muscle more
> efficiently.
>
> Also, I suppose, being taller and wearing much looser clothing that cover=
s
> a lot more of their bodies, male players carrying a few extra pounds woul=
d
> be harder to spot anyway.
>
> wg

I think there is a fundamental difference between body shapes that
work for men and for women. Because women are generally under-powered
for the game, anything that adds to power, such as weight, has big
plusses which nullify the negatives of worse movement. Height also.
Hence in the women's game heavier and taller, but more ponderous,
players don't have the disdvantage that they have in the men's game,
where power is more of a given.

BTW I didn't think Kleybanova was particularly unfit. Big, yes, but
she moved as well as many others, and her bigness allowed her to put a
lot of pace on the ball.


 
Date: 23 Jan 2009 07:05:24
From:
Subject: Re: Durie/Bradnam, Female Player's weight
In article
<0d296450-c085-462b-a533-daaa8972eed4@p23g2000prp.googlegroups.com >,
newsgrouper@yahoo.com (Broons Bane) wrote:

>
> There was an interesting discussion about female tennis players wait
> yesterday on Eurosport between Chris Bradman and Jo Durie.
> Apparently
> Roger Rashid had made a statement that some female tennis players
> were
> not in good shape.

Yeah, I came in at the end of that discussion.

>
> Jo Durie was quite defensive about this and cited David Nalbandian
> as
> an example that some men aren't in shape either. (Incidentally, Jo
> Durie has always been a bit chubby, and especially now, so I guess
> she
> is biased)

She's doubly biased, since she also helps coach some of the British
players, and until last year the British coaches seemed to largely ignore
fitness issues. When I went around Eastbourne in 2007 you could pick out
the Brit players in a second - they almost all looked like pale, flabby
schoolgirls rather than professional athletes. In 2008, all changed: they
all looked *much* fitter and you could see muscles; it wasn't so easy to
pick them out of a crowd.

>
> It's an interesting question. Women have more body fat anyway, but
> I
> don't think that explains why some female players are indeed out of
> shape. You rarely see it in other female athletes. Citing David
> Nalbandian doesn't really help the argument. He is clearly out of
> shape, but I can't really name any other male players who are
> similar.

Other female athletes tend to be in sports where body type plays a part in
being selected to do it - runners tend to be small and light, shot
putteers tend to be big and heavy. Tennis is rare in being open to many
body types (although height is of course an advantage, mostly).

>
> Kleybanova, for example, looks particularly out of shape for a woman
> who is number 29 in the world.

Kleybanova does. Her coach apparently claims it's "puppy fat" (cue Alan
Ayckbourn, in Intimate Exchnages, "I never saw a puppy that shape."). But
if you look at her covering the court against Ivanovic, she's clearly not
as unfit as all that. I'd say she could stand to lose some weight and so
could Cohen-Aloro, last time I saw her, and Lisa Raymond these days looks
ridiculously overweight (and note that her doubles results when she's not
playing with Sam Stosur show it). There was another player, whose name I'm
blanking on, who was definitely overweight, but he some legitimate medical
condition. When you go around a tournament live, you'll see that the
number of players who look unfit is really very, very small.

>
> Women having extra body fat aside, I think it is probably because
> the
> men's game is so fast and powerful that you simply couldn't get away
> with carrying too much extra weight and still be competitive.
>
> Your thoughts?

I don't think men's body types vary quite as much as women's. Just look at
VW vs SW - they're *sisters*, and yet their body types are completely
different. Also, as you said to begin with, men's bodies typically are
lower in body fat pct anyway, and I assume they lay down muscle more
efficiently.

Also, I suppose, being taller and wearing much looser clothing that covers
a lot more of their bodies, male players carrying a few extra pounds would
be harder to spot anyway.

wg


 
Date: 23 Jan 2009 04:43:43
From: Broons Bane
Subject: Re: Durie/Bradnam, Female Player's weight
I think Serena goes through phases when she is overweight, but in
general I think she is just very large build and muscular.

On 23 Jan, 12:29, topspin <goolagong...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On 23 Jan, 10:59, Broons Bane <newsgrou...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > There was an interesting discussion about female tennis players wait
> > yesterday on Eurosport between Chris Bradman and Jo Durie. =A0Apparentl=
y
> > Roger Rashid had made a statement that some female tennis players were
> > not in good shape.
>
> > Jo Durie was quite defensive about this and cited David Nalbandian as
> > an example that some men aren't in shape either. =A0(Incidentally, Jo
> > Durie has always been a bit chubby, and especially now, so I guess she
> > is biased)
>
> > It's an interesting question. =A0Women have more body fat anyway, but I
> > don't think that explains why some female players are indeed out of
> > shape. =A0You rarely see it in other female athletes. =A0Citing David
> > Nalbandian doesn't really help the argument. =A0He is clearly out of
> > shape, but I can't really name any other male players who are similar.
>
> > Kleybanova, for example, looks particularly out of shape for a woman
> > who is number 29 in the world.
>
> > Women having extra body fat aside, I think it is probably because the
> > men's game is so fast and powerful that you simply couldn't get away
> > with carrying too much extra weight and still be competitive.
>
> > Your thoughts?
>
> How relevant is 'shape' anyway. You only have to look at Serena and
> Venus to see two quite different shapes, yet both are equally
> successful. Surely 'fitness' is what matters. You can be big and fit,
> and slim but unfit.
>
> In fact one of the hazards of being too slim is not having energy
> reserves (which is why women are built for survival and generally do
> better in extreme survival tests).



 
Date: 23 Jan 2009 04:29:52
From: topspin
Subject: Re: Durie/Bradnam, Female Player's weight
On 23 Jan, 10:59, Broons Bane <newsgrou...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> There was an interesting discussion about female tennis players wait
> yesterday on Eurosport between Chris Bradman and Jo Durie. =A0Apparently
> Roger Rashid had made a statement that some female tennis players were
> not in good shape.
>
> Jo Durie was quite defensive about this and cited David Nalbandian as
> an example that some men aren't in shape either. =A0(Incidentally, Jo
> Durie has always been a bit chubby, and especially now, so I guess she
> is biased)
>
> It's an interesting question. =A0Women have more body fat anyway, but I
> don't think that explains why some female players are indeed out of
> shape. =A0You rarely see it in other female athletes. =A0Citing David
> Nalbandian doesn't really help the argument. =A0He is clearly out of
> shape, but I can't really name any other male players who are similar.
>
> Kleybanova, for example, looks particularly out of shape for a woman
> who is number 29 in the world.
>
> Women having extra body fat aside, I think it is probably because the
> men's game is so fast and powerful that you simply couldn't get away
> with carrying too much extra weight and still be competitive.
>
> Your thoughts?

How relevant is 'shape' anyway. You only have to look at Serena and
Venus to see two quite different shapes, yet both are equally
successful. Surely 'fitness' is what matters. You can be big and fit,
and slim but unfit.

In fact one of the hazards of being too slim is not having energy
reserves (which is why women are built for survival and generally do
better in extreme survival tests).


 
Date: 23 Jan 2009 03:46:24
From:
Subject: Re: Durie/Bradnam, Female Player's weight
On Jan 23, 10:59=A0am, Broons Bane <newsgrou...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> There was an interesting discussion about female tennis players wait
> yesterday on Eurosport between Chris Bradman and Jo Durie. =A0Apparently
> Roger Rashid had made a statement that some female tennis players were
> not in good shape.
>
> Jo Durie was quite defensive about this and cited David Nalbandian as
> an example that some men aren't in shape either. =A0(Incidentally, Jo
> Durie has always been a bit chubby, and especially now, so I guess she
> is biased)
>
> It's an interesting question. =A0Women have more body fat anyway, but I
> don't think that explains why some female players are indeed out of
> shape. =A0You rarely see it in other female athletes. =A0Citing David
> Nalbandian doesn't really help the argument. =A0He is clearly out of
> shape, but I can't really name any other male players who are similar.
>
> Kleybanova, for example, looks particularly out of shape for a woman
> who is number 29 in the world.
>
> Women having extra body fat aside, I think it is probably because the
> men's game is so fast and powerful that you simply couldn't get away
> with carrying too much extra weight and still be competitive.
>
> Your thoughts?

It was Simon Reed actually, not Chris Bradnam.

They were commentating on Safina-Kanepi and Kanepi looked clearly a
bit overweight and was struggling to move quickly out to wide balls.
They mentioned this and then Reed brought up Rasheed's comments about
Dellacqua.

Durie was indeed defensive about it and cited Nalbandian as an example
on the mens side. She said that Dellacqua had said that Rasheed knew
nothing of her training methods and that her camp maintained that she
was fit.

I didn't really buy that argument - if Dellacqua looks overweight (and
I didn't see her play) then whatever training she is doing isn't
enough. Kanepi didn't look like a professional althlete to me either.

Using Nalbandian isn't really a great argument - there's no excuse for
him either. But apart from maybe Baghdatis, there are very few other
men who are carrying even a small amount of weight.





 
Date: 23 Jan 2009 03:19:32
From: Lax
Subject: Re: Durie/Bradnam, Female Player's weight
This clearly has a lot to do with the difference between women and men
as biological species. This should be obvious to everyone.
A lot of the "stronger" WTA players are a bit chubby, most of the
"skinny" WTA players are not that strong. It's, on average, harder
for women to maintain low %b.f. while still keeping strength high.