tennis-forum.net
Promoting tennis discussion.

Main
Date: 31 Jan 2009 09:51:48
From: wkhedr
Subject: Federer returning Nadal's serve
Federer always takes a neutral position not preferring any sides when
returning Nadal's serve. This gives him a lot of trouble returning
Nadal's serve.
I believe Federer should cheat 1-2 feet to the left (his backhand
side) to have better control on returning serves coming to his back
hand side. Also he should come forward to cut the angles.

This will give Nadal something to think about, forcing him to serve to
Federer's FH a more. Federer should be faster rushing to his FH side
and returning as well.

This is what puts Federer is disadvantage against Nadal not allowing
him to break Nadal's serve easily.




 
Date: 31 Jan 2009 17:43:07
From: kaennorsing
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
On 1 feb, 01:48, stephenj <s...@cox.com > wrote:
> Petter Solbu wrote:
> > stephenj wrote:
>
> >> Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
> >> games in every set he's played this tournament.
>
> > Yes, it is amazing how he can hold serve that easy most of the time. His
> > serve has improved some, but that is just a part of the story. He steps
> > into the court when he sees the opportunity on a weak return. I think
> > that is one of his major improvements on HC and grass. Verdasco played
> > so evenly with Nadal in five sets, but still Nadal only lost serve twice
> > during the entire match with a much weaker serve than Verdasco. Verdasco
> > lost serve four times.
>
> >> We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
> >> fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
> >> that would trouble Nadal.
>
> > Very true. One thing Fed CANNOT due too much in this match is use that
> > slice return.
>
> Exactly. The slice return is like feeding raw meat to a rottweiler.
> Nadal just steps into the court and obliterates the slice return with a
> whipping forehand that either is an outright winner or puts the opponent
> in a hopeless position in the rally.

True, though the slice should be used as variation. It can work quite
well when used sparsely.

> Nadal is the best baseline hitter since at least Borg, and possibly of
> all time. NO ONE can hope to beat him from the baseline. Which means
> that when Nadal is serving, your ONLY chance is to win the point with a
> STRONG return of serve. Either a return-winner, or a shot that is so
> strong that it puts Nadal back on his heels and set up for the kill.

I don't think Nadal is the best ballstriker but he may well be the
best rallyer of all time. Once you allow him into a rally there's
trouble. Attack him with deep penetrating shots and his ballstriking
is not that impressive. It's rather defensive and one can seize
control of the point.

> If the ROS doesn't put you IMMEDIATELY in a winning position, your goose
> is cooked.

It's easier to return well for Federer if he serves well. If he wins
his service games rather easily, Nadal will be on the backfoot on his
serve a lot of the time.


 
Date: 31 Jan 2009 14:36:35
From: PeteWasLucky
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
On Jan 31, 5:31=A0pm, akamai <akamai.nak...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Jan 31, 3:44 pm, stephenj <s...@cox.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > This is what puts Federer is disadvantage against Nadal not allowing
> > > him to break Nadal's serve easily.
>
> > Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
> > games in every set he's played this tournament.
>
> > Usually, it's because (b) Nadal backs his serve up with the best
> > groundies, and (a) his lefty delivery gives him the ability to easily
> > serve to the right-handed returner's backhand.
>
> > We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
> > fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
> > that would trouble Nadal.
>
> > In contrast, the one guy in the past year who beat Nadal at a slam,
> > Murray, used his powerful two-handed BH to punish Nadal's second serve
> > and create break opportunities.
>
> > IMO, Fed should take a page from the sampras handbook when facing
> > Agassi. Rather than hitting safe backhand returns that are assured of
> > getting back over the net but only serve to start a rally that Nadal
> > will usually win, Fed needs to go for broke and RIP at those Nadal
> > serves with his BH. Sure, he'll make a lot more errors. But if just onc=
e
> > a set he gets hot and hits a couple return winners, he'll create the
> > critical break chances he needs to win the set.
>
> **********
> McEnroe was lamenting this in the '05 US Open final. He was wondering
> why wouldn't fed do more with the return. Fed kept hitting slices off
> Agassi's laughable second serves that put him right away in defensive
> positions. In the one game he broke Agassi in the 3rd set, Fed finally
> did just that. However, Fed does not seem to have learned the lesson.
> He did the same against Tipsarevic last year too and the only reason
> he finally won was because of aggressive return on one last service
> game. I think Fed lacks the upper body strength to hit those returns
> and/or his reflexes are not that good. He would rather lose a point
> after a rally than waste it completely due to a missed return. A coach
> would have helped his mindset! Enough said, I am ruing over spilled
> milk here:-(- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It's not that easy. Hitting a strong return without control can result
in two things:
1- Making an error
2- Sending the ball with pace while out of position to his opponent
and all his opponent needs to do is to direct the ball to the empty
court and win the point.

While a slow slice return has good percentage and requires the
opponent time and movement to generate pace allowing Federer to get
back into the point.



  
Date: 31 Jan 2009 18:53:43
From: stephenj
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
> PeteWasLucky wrote:

> While a slow slice return has good percentage and requires the
> opponent time and movement to generate pace allowing Federer to get
> back into the point.

That works against most guys, but not Nadal, because he has no trouble
moving forward and generating pace. He just steps in and cracks a
forehand that sends the slice return whipping in to either corner, and
you are done.



--
I do not think the United States would come to an end if
we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do
think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make
that declaration as to the laws of the several States.

- Oliver Wendell Holmes, on the SCOTUS


  
Date: 31 Jan 2009 23:48:58
From: Petter Solbu
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
PeteWasLucky wrote:

> While a slow slice return has good percentage and requires the
> opponent time and movement to generate pace allowing Federer to get
> back into the point.

Against Roddick it is a perfect strategy. Against Nadal it is very
stupid. You simply don't neutralize anything when you play Nadal. You
have to strike back, that is the only option. Just think about Tsonga
last year. He stroke back with winners from all angles and positions on
the court. If he was trying to neutralize more with slices Nadal would
have him running from the next second.

The most important thing is length though. You can hit a clean backhand
return in the middle of the court near Nadal's baseline. Still you will
most of the time get pushed at the next ball, but it will be harder for
Nadal to push you behind the baseline.

PS.


 
Date: 31 Jan 2009 14:31:09
From: akamai
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
On Jan 31, 3:44 pm, stephenj <s...@cox.com > wrote:
> > This is what puts Federer is disadvantage against Nadal not allowing
> > him to break Nadal's serve easily.
>
> Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
> games in every set he's played this tournament.
>
> Usually, it's because (b) Nadal backs his serve up with the best
> groundies, and (a) his lefty delivery gives him the ability to easily
> serve to the right-handed returner's backhand.
>
> We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
> fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
> that would trouble Nadal.
>
> In contrast, the one guy in the past year who beat Nadal at a slam,
> Murray, used his powerful two-handed BH to punish Nadal's second serve
> and create break opportunities.
>
> IMO, Fed should take a page from the sampras handbook when facing
> Agassi. Rather than hitting safe backhand returns that are assured of
> getting back over the net but only serve to start a rally that Nadal
> will usually win, Fed needs to go for broke and RIP at those Nadal
> serves with his BH. Sure, he'll make a lot more errors. But if just once
> a set he gets hot and hits a couple return winners, he'll create the
> critical break chances he needs to win the set.

**********
McEnroe was lamenting this in the '05 US Open final. He was wondering
why wouldn't fed do more with the return. Fed kept hitting slices off
Agassi's laughable second serves that put him right away in defensive
positions. In the one game he broke Agassi in the 3rd set, Fed finally
did just that. However, Fed does not seem to have learned the lesson.
He did the same against Tipsarevic last year too and the only reason
he finally won was because of aggressive return on one last service
game. I think Fed lacks the upper body strength to hit those returns
and/or his reflexes are not that good. He would rather lose a point
after a rally than waste it completely due to a missed return. A coach
would have helped his mindset! Enough said, I am ruing over spilled
milk here:-(


 
Date: 31 Jan 2009 14:14:25
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
On Jan 31, 4:44=A0pm, stephenj <s...@cox.com > wrote:
> > This is what puts Federer is disadvantage against Nadal not allowing
> > him to break Nadal's serve easily.
>
> Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
> games in every set he's played this tournament.
>
> Usually, it's because (b) Nadal backs his serve up with the best
> groundies, and (a) his lefty delivery gives him the ability to easily
> serve to the right-handed returner's backhand.
>
> We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
> fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
> that would trouble Nadal.
>
> In contrast, the one guy in the past year who beat Nadal at a slam,
> Murray, used his powerful two-handed BH to punish Nadal's second serve
> and create break opportunities.
>
> IMO, Fed should take a page from the sampras handbook when facing
> Agassi. Rather than hitting safe backhand returns that are assured of
> getting back over the net but only serve to start a rally that Nadal
> will usually win, Fed needs to go for broke and RIP at those Nadal
> serves with his BH. Sure, he'll make a lot more errors. But if just once
> a set he gets hot and hits a couple return winners, he'll create the
> critical break chances he needs to win the set.
>
> --
> When the facts change,
> one's opinion ought to change.
>
> - John Maynard Keynes

Nadal's serve was broken 8 times during the tournament while Federer's
serve was broken 6 times (5 out of the 6 times were against Berdych).



  
Date: 31 Jan 2009 23:17:49
From: Petter Solbu
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
wkhedr wrote:

> Nadal's serve was broken 8 times during the tournament while Federer's
> serve was broken 6 times (5 out of the 6 times were against Berdych).

Sure, but that is Federer. Compare Nadal to almost any player with a
similar serve. I can't believe anyone with a similar serve has that
break record.

PS.



 
Date: 31 Jan 2009 14:12:31
From: Scott
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
On Jan 31, 5:07=A0pm, Petter Solbu <pettermann1...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> stephenj wrote:
> > Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
> > games in every set he's played this tournament.
>
> Yes, it is amazing how he can hold serve that easy most of the time. His
> serve has improved some, but that is just a part of the story. He steps
> into the court when he sees the opportunity on a weak return. I think
> that is one of his major improvements on HC and grass. Verdasco played
> so evenly with Nadal in five sets, but still Nadal only lost serve twice
> during the entire match with a much weaker serve than Verdasco. Verdasco
> lost serve four times.
>
> > We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
> > fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
> > that would trouble Nadal.
>
> Very true. One thing Fed CANNOT due too much in this match is use that
> slice return. Slice return against Nadal is the same as asking for
> trouble since he has no problems with using his spin on that as
> response. At least he has to slice it far. It has too almost touch the
> baseline if he doesn't want to lose the point immediately.
>
> The best thing to do is of course to hit a clean backhand into Nadal's
> backhand corner. But it needs pace - if not Nadal will easily run around
> it and push with his forehand.
>

i think Fed should try one or two slice return drop shots that we've
seen him hit during his peak. make Rafa come in after serving could
pay dividends.


  
Date: 01 Feb 2009 00:29:25
From: TT
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
Scott wrote:
> On Jan 31, 5:07 pm, Petter Solbu <pettermann1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> stephenj wrote:
>>> Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
>>> games in every set he's played this tournament.
>> Yes, it is amazing how he can hold serve that easy most of the time. His
>> serve has improved some, but that is just a part of the story. He steps
>> into the court when he sees the opportunity on a weak return. I think
>> that is one of his major improvements on HC and grass. Verdasco played
>> so evenly with Nadal in five sets, but still Nadal only lost serve twice
>> during the entire match with a much weaker serve than Verdasco. Verdasco
>> lost serve four times.
>>
>>> We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
>>> fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
>>> that would trouble Nadal.
>> Very true. One thing Fed CANNOT due too much in this match is use that
>> slice return. Slice return against Nadal is the same as asking for
>> trouble since he has no problems with using his spin on that as
>> response. At least he has to slice it far. It has too almost touch the
>> baseline if he doesn't want to lose the point immediately.
>>
>> The best thing to do is of course to hit a clean backhand into Nadal's
>> backhand corner. But it needs pace - if not Nadal will easily run around
>> it and push with his forehand.
>>
>
> i think Fed should try one or two slice return drop shots that we've
> seen him hit during his peak. make Rafa come in after serving could
> pay dividends.

That could serve as a general advice for Roger but that's not the best
advice against Rafa.

--
"Now I have so many dreams to chase - the French Open, an Olympic
singles gold medal in London in 2012, the Davis Cup for Switzerland"


 
Date: 31 Jan 2009 14:11:01
From: Scott
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
On Jan 31, 4:44=A0pm, stephenj <s...@cox.com > wrote:
> > This is what puts Federer is disadvantage against Nadal not allowing
> > him to break Nadal's serve easily.
>
> Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
> games in every set he's played this tournament.
>
> Usually, it's because (b) Nadal backs his serve up with the best
> groundies, and (a) his lefty delivery gives him the ability to easily
> serve to the right-handed returner's backhand.
>
> We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
> fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
> that would trouble Nadal.
>
> In contrast, the one guy in the past year who beat Nadal at a slam,
> Murray, used his powerful two-handed BH to punish Nadal's second serve
> and create break opportunities.
>
> IMO, Fed should take a page from the sampras handbook when facing
> Agassi. Rather than hitting safe backhand returns that are assured of
> getting back over the net but only serve to start a rally that Nadal
> will usually win, Fed needs to go for broke and RIP at those Nadal
> serves with his BH. Sure, he'll make a lot more errors. But if just once
> a set he gets hot and hits a couple return winners, he'll create the
> critical break chances he needs to win the set.
>
good post.


 
Date: 31 Jan 2009 15:44:11
From: stephenj
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve

> This is what puts Federer is disadvantage against Nadal not allowing
> him to break Nadal's serve easily.

Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
games in every set he's played this tournament.

Usually, it's because (b) Nadal backs his serve up with the best
groundies, and (a) his lefty delivery gives him the ability to easily
serve to the right-handed returner's backhand.

We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
that would trouble Nadal.

In contrast, the one guy in the past year who beat Nadal at a slam,
Murray, used his powerful two-handed BH to punish Nadal's second serve
and create break opportunities.

IMO, Fed should take a page from the sampras handbook when facing
Agassi. Rather than hitting safe backhand returns that are assured of
getting back over the net but only serve to start a rally that Nadal
will usually win, Fed needs to go for broke and RIP at those Nadal
serves with his BH. Sure, he'll make a lot more errors. But if just once
a set he gets hot and hits a couple return winners, he'll create the
critical break chances he needs to win the set.



--
When the facts change,
one's opinion ought to change.

- John Maynard Keynes


  
Date: 31 Jan 2009 23:07:28
From: Petter Solbu
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
stephenj wrote:

> Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
> games in every set he's played this tournament.

Yes, it is amazing how he can hold serve that easy most of the time. His
serve has improved some, but that is just a part of the story. He steps
into the court when he sees the opportunity on a weak return. I think
that is one of his major improvements on HC and grass. Verdasco played
so evenly with Nadal in five sets, but still Nadal only lost serve twice
during the entire match with a much weaker serve than Verdasco. Verdasco
lost serve four times.

> We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
> fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
> that would trouble Nadal.

Very true. One thing Fed CANNOT due too much in this match is use that
slice return. Slice return against Nadal is the same as asking for
trouble since he has no problems with using his spin on that as
response. At least he has to slice it far. It has too almost touch the
baseline if he doesn't want to lose the point immediately.

The best thing to do is of course to hit a clean backhand into Nadal's
backhand corner. But it needs pace - if not Nadal will easily run around
it and push with his forehand.

PS.


   
Date: 31 Jan 2009 18:48:45
From: stephenj
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
Petter Solbu wrote:
> stephenj wrote:
>
>> Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
>> games in every set he's played this tournament.
>
> Yes, it is amazing how he can hold serve that easy most of the time. His
> serve has improved some, but that is just a part of the story. He steps
> into the court when he sees the opportunity on a weak return. I think
> that is one of his major improvements on HC and grass. Verdasco played
> so evenly with Nadal in five sets, but still Nadal only lost serve twice
> during the entire match with a much weaker serve than Verdasco. Verdasco
> lost serve four times.
>
>> We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
>> fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
>> that would trouble Nadal.
>
> Very true. One thing Fed CANNOT due too much in this match is use that
> slice return.

Exactly. The slice return is like feeding raw meat to a rottweiler.
Nadal just steps into the court and obliterates the slice return with a
whipping forehand that either is an outright winner or puts the opponent
in a hopeless position in the rally.

Nadal is the best baseline hitter since at least Borg, and possibly of
all time. NO ONE can hope to beat him from the baseline. Which means
that when Nadal is serving, your ONLY chance is to win the point with a
STRONG return of serve. Either a return-winner, or a shot that is so
strong that it puts Nadal back on his heels and set up for the kill.

If the ROS doesn't put you IMMEDIATELY in a winning position, your goose
is cooked.



--
"if federal judges have the final word over its meaning,
the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands
of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form
they please".

- Thomas Jefferson


  
Date: 31 Jan 2009 23:52:46
From: TT
Subject: Re: Federer returning Nadal's serve
stephenj wrote:
>
>> This is what puts Federer is disadvantage against Nadal not allowing
>> him to break Nadal's serve easily.
>
> Truth is, EVERYONE has trouble breaking Nadal's serve. Nadal has won 6
> games in every set he's played this tournament.
>
> Usually, it's because (b) Nadal backs his serve up with the best
> groundies, and (a) his lefty delivery gives him the ability to easily
> serve to the right-handed returner's backhand.
>
> We've all seen Nadal do this to Fed over and over - he feeds serves to
> fed's BH, and fed's BH isn't strong enough to hit the kind of return
> that would trouble Nadal.
>
> In contrast, the one guy in the past year who beat Nadal at a slam,
> Murray, used his powerful two-handed BH to punish Nadal's second serve
> and create break opportunities.
>
> IMO, Fed should take a page from the sampras handbook when facing
> Agassi. Rather than hitting safe backhand returns that are assured of
> getting back over the net but only serve to start a rally that Nadal
> will usually win, Fed needs to go for broke and RIP at those Nadal
> serves with his BH. Sure, he'll make a lot more errors. But if just once
> a set he gets hot and hits a couple return winners, he'll create the
> critical break chances he needs to win the set.
>
>

Only thing he would create were a record on shanked backhands. :)


--
"Now I have so many dreams to chase - the French Open, an Olympic
singles gold medal in London in 2012, the Davis Cup for Switzerland"