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Date: 05 Feb 2009 07:28:33
From: wkhedr
Subject: Federer trapped in his backhand side
Look at this video: https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE9PQ

Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.

The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?

In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.

Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
rally with his backhand.

This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
quickly of the backhand trap.





 
Date: 07 Feb 2009 09:40:44
From: number_six
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 7, 9:12=A0am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com > wrote:
> On Feb 7, 11:40=A0am, number_six <cyberi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 8:33=A0am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 7, 4:37=A0am, Carey <carey_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > > > > Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> writes:
>
> > > > > > On Feb 6, 2:41?pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > > > > >> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> > > > > >> > On Feb 5, 12:37?pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > >> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06?pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> =
wrote:
>
> > > > > >> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed wit=
h a single
> > > > > >> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > > > >> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > > > >> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backh=
and is
> > > > > >> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court=
-coverage,
> > > > > >> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetic=
s). Nadal,
>
> > > > > >> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice,=
these
> > > > > >> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are r=
efering to
> > > > > >> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have,=
if
> > > > > >> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > > > > >> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable =
with
> > > > > >> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair aga=
inst Nadal,
> > > > > >> >> for example?
>
> > > > > >> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and=
needed
> > > > > >> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>
> > > > > >> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why no=
t.
>
> > > > > >> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the ri=
se inside
> > > > > >> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in=
fact
> > > > > >> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its =
way to
> > > > > >> extinction.
>
> > > > > > A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impe=
nding
> > > > > > extinction of a style.
>
> > > > > There's got to be some explanation for even an impending doom. Ku=
erten
> > > > > is an answer to those who think the one hander isn't adaptable to=
the
> > > > > topspinning environment.
>
> > > > > > Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in=
the
> > > > > > current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality.
>
> > > > > You can't slice it thinner than that.
>
> > > > > > Perhaps the
> > > > > > pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps n=
ot. But
> > > > > > right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analys=
es of
> > > > > > ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.
>
> > > > > Another hypothesis would run like this:
>
> > > > > Boys and girls starting tennis go through the same process, adopt=
their
> > > > > preferred 2H BH for the same reasons. This has been going on for,=
like,
> > > > > 20-30 years now.
>
> > > > > How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of tho=
usands?
> > > > > If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha=
ATP
> > > > > also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
> > > > > increase from the starting point of 0.1%.
>
> > > > > Given the proper niche, the 1 hander prospers. Elsewhere, it dies=
.
>
> > > > I have a friend who coaches quite successfully at the
> > > > college level. We've talked about this issue quite a bit,
> > > > and what he has told me is that that game (one-hander,
> > > > getting to net, cutting off the court) is simply not taught
> > > > at the earlier stages. Period. Too much trouble atm,
> > > > too slow rate of return (today); and he ends up with
> > > > extremely proficient players *who don't know that
> > > > part of the game*. It's simply being lost. All we can
> > > > hope for are grand exceptions a la Federer (and it's
> > > > surprising and sad that many are glad to see him fail).
>
> > > Yes, it's ironic, isn't it? Every Fed loss to Nadal is in a sense a
> > > defeat for Federer's style as well, at least in terms of influence on
> > > future players. People notice. It was the obvious backhand problem in
> > > the AO final that led to all these "demise of the one-handed backhand=
"
> > > discussions since then.
>
> > > Joe Ramirez- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Yet Fed is still capable of dismantling all two-handers except this
> > one ferocious *lefty*.
>
> Federer is extraordinarily talented -- an outlier. The stroke's future
> ultimately will be determined by the success, or lack thereof, of more
> run-of-the-mill pros.
>
> Joe Ramirez- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Probably so; and perhaps Nadal is something of an outlier himself, no?

BTW, Rafa's one-hander helped him win the final, and really helped him
get through his semi.


 
Date: 07 Feb 2009 09:22:31
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 7, 12:04=A0pm, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com > wrote:
> On Feb 7, 4:19=A0am, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> writes:
> > > On Feb 6, 2:41=A0pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > >> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> > >> > On Feb 5, 12:37=A0pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > >> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrot=
e:
>
> > >> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a si=
ngle
> > >> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > >> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > >> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > >> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-cover=
age,
> > >> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Na=
dal,
>
> > >> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> > >> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are referin=
g to
> > >> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > >> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > >> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> > >> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against N=
adal,
> > >> >> for example?
>
> > >> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and neede=
d
> > >> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>
> > >> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
>
> > >> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise ins=
ide
> > >> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fact
> > >> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way to
> > >> extinction.
>
> > > A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impending
> > > extinction of a style.
>
> > There's got to be some explanation for even an impending doom. Kuerten
> > is an answer to those who think the one hander isn't adaptable to the
> > topspinning environment.
>
> It's long been clear that it is *possible* to be a good, steady, one-
> handed topspinner, and to have success against other baseliners. Vilas
> proved that over 30 years ago (though he was no match for Borg). But
> just because a tactic is possible with the one-hander doesn't mean
> that it is an *advantage* of the stroke. The problem today is that the
> one-hander really has no advantages for hard-hitting tennis, and the
> two-hander has some big ones:
> *greater consistency on topspin & flat shots
> *greater power on high balls
> *greater effective reach (you may be able to stretch farther with a
> one-hander, but you can't hit a good topspin like that)
> *better inside-out aggressive backhands
>
> As noted previously, the one-hander's advantages in slice,
> versatility, and defensive reach have disappeared because a two-handed
> player can simply switch to a single hand when necessary. I think we
> have already reached the point in both men's and women's tennis where
> most one-handed backhands are hit by two-handed players leaving off a
> hand for variety. :)
>
> In terms of defensive capabilities, it's interesting that the men's
> top four today is probably the best we have ever had. Nadal, Federer,
> Djokovic, and Murray all move exceptionally well and defend superbly.
> I can't think of a previous top four that comes close to them. And yet
> three out of the four use a two-handed backhand.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in the
> > > current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality.
>
> > You can't slice it thinner than that.
>
> > > Perhaps the
> > > pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not. Bu=
t
> > > right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses of
> > > ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.
>
> > Another hypothesis would run like this:
>
> > Boys and girls starting tennis go through the same process, adopt their
> > preferred 2H BH for the same reasons. This has been going on for, like,
> > 20-30 years now.
>
> > How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thousands=
?
> > If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha ATP
> > also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
> > increase from the starting point of 0.1%.
>
> I don't follow this argument. Because the one-handed backhand is
> almost literally extinct in the WTA (highest ranked one-hander is
> Mauresmo at no. 23, and she's on the way out), its better showing in
> the ATP means its position is secure? Men/boys tend to be stronger
> than women/girls. The one-hander for men is not as much of a weakness
> as it is for women, so it's not surprising that its nearly complete
> abandonment has occurred with the WTA but not the ATP.
>
> Look, there are plenty of reasons that the two-handed slice forehand
> should be totally extinct, but as long as Santoro is still playing, it
> won't be. I doubt that we will see a day when absolutely no one in the
> top 1,000 is using the one-handed backhand, which would be literal
> extinction. But unless there are substantial changes in the
> contemporary game, I do think the stroke's decline is likely to
> continue, until it comes to be regarded as a curiosity rather than a
> viable stylistic option.
>
> Joe Ramirez- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Instead of checking the % of players that have one-handed BH in top 10
players to determine the effectiveness of the two-handed BH, let's
check the % of one-handed BH players in the top 100. My guess it won't
be any different than the top 10 %. It has to do with tennis schools
graduating robots and forcing young kids to use two hands.
By the way, when we check the %, let's ignore players older than 25
years old.



  
Date: 07 Feb 2009 13:17:47
From: marika
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side

"wkhedr" <wkhedr@my-deja.com > wrote in message
news:d5640239-562e-4598-aca5-15e0251c1776@k19g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
Instead of checking the % of players that have one-handed BH in top 10
players to determine the effectiveness of the two-handed BH, let's
check the % of one-handed BH players in the top 100. My guess it won't
be any different than the top 10 %. It has to do with tennis schools
graduating robots and forcing young kids to use two hands.
By the way, when we check the %, let's ignore players older than 25
years old.

===========

It's like everyone forgot about Bob

Have you read "Infinite Jest"
The first hundred pages were interesting but it got beyond pretentious and I
wannabe Joyce and Faulkner
Though the book certainly gave me insight into the Tennis prep school world.
Assuming that book has any reliability, robots they are indeed. If not
robots, then they are abusing drugs in spite of wanting to be examplary
athletes.

The only thing I will remember about this book ten years later though is
that the writer kept talking about Whataburger, which I had never heard of
before but now know is a real restaurant chain

mk5000

Richard: You're looking at my girlfriend's breasts!
Larry: First of all, Richard, they're not breasts. They're not breasts,
they're just big chemical balls, okay? --Curb your enthusiasm



 
Date: 07 Feb 2009 09:12:18
From: Joe Ramirez
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 7, 11:40=A0am, number_six <cyberi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 7, 8:33=A0am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 4:37=A0am, Carey <carey_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > > > Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> writes:
>
> > > > > On Feb 6, 2:41?pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > > > >> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> > > > >> > On Feb 5, 12:37?pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > >> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06?pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wr=
ote:
>
> > > > >> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with =
a single
> > > > >> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > > >> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > > >> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhan=
d is
> > > > >> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-c=
overage,
> > > > >> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics)=
. Nadal,
>
> > > > >> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, t=
hese
> > > > >> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are ref=
ering to
> > > > >> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, i=
f
> > > > >> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > > > >> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable wi=
th
> > > > >> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair again=
st Nadal,
> > > > >> >> for example?
>
> > > > >> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and n=
eeded
> > > > >> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>
> > > > >> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
>
> > > > >> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise=
inside
> > > > >> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in f=
act
> > > > >> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its wa=
y to
> > > > >> extinction.
>
> > > > > A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impend=
ing
> > > > > extinction of a style.
>
> > > > There's got to be some explanation for even an impending doom. Kuer=
ten
> > > > is an answer to those who think the one hander isn't adaptable to t=
he
> > > > topspinning environment.
>
> > > > > Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in t=
he
> > > > > current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality.
>
> > > > You can't slice it thinner than that.
>
> > > > > Perhaps the
> > > > > pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not=
. But
> > > > > right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses=
of
> > > > > ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.
>
> > > > Another hypothesis would run like this:
>
> > > > Boys and girls starting tennis go through the same process, adopt t=
heir
> > > > preferred 2H BH for the same reasons. This has been going on for, l=
ike,
> > > > 20-30 years now.
>
> > > > How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thous=
ands?
> > > > If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha A=
TP
> > > > also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
> > > > increase from the starting point of 0.1%.
>
> > > > Given the proper niche, the 1 hander prospers. Elsewhere, it dies.
>
> > > I have a friend who coaches quite successfully at the
> > > college level. We've talked about this issue quite a bit,
> > > and what he has told me is that that game (one-hander,
> > > getting to net, cutting off the court) is simply not taught
> > > at the earlier stages. Period. Too much trouble atm,
> > > too slow rate of return (today); and he ends up with
> > > extremely proficient players *who don't know that
> > > part of the game*. It's simply being lost. All we can
> > > hope for are grand exceptions a la Federer (and it's
> > > surprising and sad that many are glad to see him fail).
>
> > Yes, it's ironic, isn't it? Every Fed loss to Nadal is in a sense a
> > defeat for Federer's style as well, at least in terms of influence on
> > future players. People notice. It was the obvious backhand problem in
> > the AO final that led to all these "demise of the one-handed backhand"
> > discussions since then.
>
> > Joe Ramirez- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yet Fed is still capable of dismantling all two-handers except this
> one ferocious *lefty*.

Federer is extraordinarily talented -- an outlier. The stroke's future
ultimately will be determined by the success, or lack thereof, of more
run-of-the-mill pros.

Joe Ramirez


 
Date: 07 Feb 2009 09:04:24
From: Joe Ramirez
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 7, 4:19=A0am, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> writes:
> > On Feb 6, 2:41=A0pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> >> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> >> > On Feb 5, 12:37=A0pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a sing=
le
> >> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> >> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> >> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> >> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverag=
e,
> >> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nada=
l,
>
> >> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> >> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering =
to
> >> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> >> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> >> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> >> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nad=
al,
> >> >> for example?
>
> >> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
> >> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>
> >> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
>
> >> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise insid=
e
> >> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fact
> >> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way to
> >> extinction.
>
> > A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impending
> > extinction of a style.
>
> There's got to be some explanation for even an impending doom. Kuerten
> is an answer to those who think the one hander isn't adaptable to the
> topspinning environment.

It's long been clear that it is *possible* to be a good, steady, one-
handed topspinner, and to have success against other baseliners. Vilas
proved that over 30 years ago (though he was no match for Borg). But
just because a tactic is possible with the one-hander doesn't mean
that it is an *advantage* of the stroke. The problem today is that the
one-hander really has no advantages for hard-hitting tennis, and the
two-hander has some big ones:
*greater consistency on topspin & flat shots
*greater power on high balls
*greater effective reach (you may be able to stretch farther with a
one-hander, but you can't hit a good topspin like that)
*better inside-out aggressive backhands

As noted previously, the one-hander's advantages in slice,
versatility, and defensive reach have disappeared because a two-handed
player can simply switch to a single hand when necessary. I think we
have already reached the point in both men's and women's tennis where
most one-handed backhands are hit by two-handed players leaving off a
hand for variety. :)

In terms of defensive capabilities, it's interesting that the men's
top four today is probably the best we have ever had. Nadal, Federer,
Djokovic, and Murray all move exceptionally well and defend superbly.
I can't think of a previous top four that comes close to them. And yet
three out of the four use a two-handed backhand.

>
> > Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in the
> > current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality.
>
> You can't slice it thinner than that.
>
> > Perhaps the
> > pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not. But
> > right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses of
> > ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.
>
> Another hypothesis would run like this:
>
> Boys and girls starting tennis go through the same process, adopt their
> preferred 2H BH for the same reasons. This has been going on for, like,
> 20-30 years now.
>
> How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thousands?
> If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha ATP
> also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
> increase from the starting point of 0.1%.

I don't follow this argument. Because the one-handed backhand is
almost literally extinct in the WTA (highest ranked one-hander is
Mauresmo at no. 23, and she's on the way out), its better showing in
the ATP means its position is secure? Men/boys tend to be stronger
than women/girls. The one-hander for men is not as much of a weakness
as it is for women, so it's not surprising that its nearly complete
abandonment has occurred with the WTA but not the ATP.

Look, there are plenty of reasons that the two-handed slice forehand
should be totally extinct, but as long as Santoro is still playing, it
won't be. I doubt that we will see a day when absolutely no one in the
top 1,000 is using the one-handed backhand, which would be literal
extinction. But unless there are substantial changes in the
contemporary game, I do think the stroke's decline is likely to
continue, until it comes to be regarded as a curiosity rather than a
viable stylistic option.

Joe Ramirez


 
Date: 07 Feb 2009 08:51:41
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 7, 11:33=A0am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com > wrote:
> On Feb 7, 4:37=A0am, Carey <carey_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > > Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> writes:
>
> > > > On Feb 6, 2:41?pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > > >> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> > > >> > On Feb 5, 12:37?pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > >> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06?pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrot=
e:
>
> > > >> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a =
single
> > > >> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > >> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > >> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand =
is
> > > >> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-cov=
erage,
> > > >> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). =
Nadal,
>
> > > >> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, the=
se
> > > >> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refer=
ing to
> > > >> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > > >> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > > >> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> > > >> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against=
Nadal,
> > > >> >> for example?
>
> > > >> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and nee=
ded
> > > >> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>
> > > >> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
>
> > > >> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise i=
nside
> > > >> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fac=
t
> > > >> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way =
to
> > > >> extinction.
>
> > > > A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impendin=
g
> > > > extinction of a style.
>
> > > There's got to be some explanation for even an impending doom. Kuerte=
n
> > > is an answer to those who think the one hander isn't adaptable to the
> > > topspinning environment.
>
> > > > Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in the
> > > > current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality.
>
> > > You can't slice it thinner than that.
>
> > > > Perhaps the
> > > > pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not. =
But
> > > > right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses o=
f
> > > > ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.
>
> > > Another hypothesis would run like this:
>
> > > Boys and girls starting tennis go through the same process, adopt the=
ir
> > > preferred 2H BH for the same reasons. This has been going on for, lik=
e,
> > > 20-30 years now.
>
> > > How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thousan=
ds?
> > > If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha ATP
> > > also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
> > > increase from the starting point of 0.1%.
>
> > > Given the proper niche, the 1 hander prospers. Elsewhere, it dies.
>
> > I have a friend who coaches quite successfully at the
> > college level. We've talked about this issue quite a bit,
> > and what he has told me is that that game (one-hander,
> > getting to net, cutting off the court) is simply not taught
> > at the earlier stages. Period. Too much trouble atm,
> > too slow rate of return (today); and he ends up with
> > extremely proficient players *who don't know that
> > part of the game*. It's simply being lost. All we can
> > hope for are grand exceptions a la Federer (and it's
> > surprising and sad that many are glad to see him fail).
>
> Yes, it's ironic, isn't it? Every Fed loss to Nadal is in a sense a
> defeat for Federer's style as well, at least in terms of influence on
> future players. People notice. It was the obvious backhand problem in
> the AO final that led to all these "demise of the one-handed backhand"
> discussions since then.
>
> Joe Ramirez- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not sure if you are joking, but Federer's backhand was good during
that match, the problem was other things we al know.


 
Date: 07 Feb 2009 08:50:45
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 7, 5:08=A0am, Whisper <beaver...@ozemail.com.au > wrote:
> Carey wrote:
>
> > p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> >> How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thousand=
s?
> >> If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha ATP
> >> also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
> >> increase from the starting point of 0.1%.
>
> >> Given the proper niche, the 1 hander prospers. Elsewhere, it dies.
> > I have a friend who coaches quite successfully at the
> > college level. We've talked about this issue quite a bit,
> > and what he has told me is that that game (one-hander,
> > getting to net, cutting off the court) is simply not taught
> > at the earlier stages. Period. Too much trouble atm,
> > too slow rate of return (today); and he ends up with
> > extremely proficient players *who don't know that
> > part of the game*. It's simply being lost.
>
> Agreed. =A0What's needed is people who really know tennis (& care to get
> involved) to get in at the grassroots level & give kids an understanding
> of the options out there (I could do it but life's too short). =A0I playe=
d
> a very good junior today in the Ladder comp (gave me my toughest match
> so far 61 76). =A0He had a massive serve & single H bh - the times he cam=
e
> in he volleyed nice winners deep into the corners.
>
> He was keen for my advice after the match & told him to work on
> developing a consistent ball toss so he can get his big serves in
> consistently, & charge the net. =A0Until he sorts out his ball toss he'll
> struggle to get a reliable serve pattern going. =A0I told him to ignore
> the few times he'll get passed & just keep coming in on his big shots -
> this forces opponents to go for too much & they will give him plenty of
> freebies.
>
> The kid was a sponge & taking it all in so I'll have to see how he goes.
> =A0 He said he's never played anyone like me who varies the shots so much
> he never knew what was coming.
>
> > All we can
> > hope for are grand exceptions a la Federer (and it's
> > surprising and sad that many are glad to see him fail).
>
> You have a point... ; )
>
> My objections re Federer relate to claims of goatness, which he most
> certainly is not as far as ability goes. =A0He's top 10 but not the guy
> who 'took tennis to a new level' or showed unprecedented talent.- Hide qu=
oted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

We all know how great your are :) not sure what brought your great
play into the discussion!


 
Date: 07 Feb 2009 08:40:50
From: number_six
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 7, 8:33=A0am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com > wrote:
> On Feb 7, 4:37=A0am, Carey <carey_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > > Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> writes:
>
> > > > On Feb 6, 2:41?pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > > >> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> > > >> > On Feb 5, 12:37?pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > >> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06?pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrot=
e:
>
> > > >> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a =
single
> > > >> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > >> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > >> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand =
is
> > > >> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-cov=
erage,
> > > >> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). =
Nadal,
>
> > > >> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, the=
se
> > > >> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refer=
ing to
> > > >> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > > >> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > > >> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> > > >> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against=
Nadal,
> > > >> >> for example?
>
> > > >> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and nee=
ded
> > > >> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>
> > > >> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
>
> > > >> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise i=
nside
> > > >> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fac=
t
> > > >> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way =
to
> > > >> extinction.
>
> > > > A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impendin=
g
> > > > extinction of a style.
>
> > > There's got to be some explanation for even an impending doom. Kuerte=
n
> > > is an answer to those who think the one hander isn't adaptable to the
> > > topspinning environment.
>
> > > > Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in the
> > > > current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality.
>
> > > You can't slice it thinner than that.
>
> > > > Perhaps the
> > > > pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not. =
But
> > > > right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses o=
f
> > > > ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.
>
> > > Another hypothesis would run like this:
>
> > > Boys and girls starting tennis go through the same process, adopt the=
ir
> > > preferred 2H BH for the same reasons. This has been going on for, lik=
e,
> > > 20-30 years now.
>
> > > How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thousan=
ds?
> > > If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha ATP
> > > also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
> > > increase from the starting point of 0.1%.
>
> > > Given the proper niche, the 1 hander prospers. Elsewhere, it dies.
>
> > I have a friend who coaches quite successfully at the
> > college level. We've talked about this issue quite a bit,
> > and what he has told me is that that game (one-hander,
> > getting to net, cutting off the court) is simply not taught
> > at the earlier stages. Period. Too much trouble atm,
> > too slow rate of return (today); and he ends up with
> > extremely proficient players *who don't know that
> > part of the game*. It's simply being lost. All we can
> > hope for are grand exceptions a la Federer (and it's
> > surprising and sad that many are glad to see him fail).
>
> Yes, it's ironic, isn't it? Every Fed loss to Nadal is in a sense a
> defeat for Federer's style as well, at least in terms of influence on
> future players. People notice. It was the obvious backhand problem in
> the AO final that led to all these "demise of the one-handed backhand"
> discussions since then.
>
> Joe Ramirez- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yet Fed is still capable of dismantling all two-handers except this
one ferocious *lefty*.


 
Date: 07 Feb 2009 08:33:41
From: Joe Ramirez
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 7, 4:37=A0am, Carey <carey_1...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> writes:
>
> > > On Feb 6, 2:41?pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> > >> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> > >> > On Feb 5, 12:37?pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > >> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06?pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a si=
ngle
> > >> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > >> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > >> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > >> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-cover=
age,
> > >> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Na=
dal,
>
> > >> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> > >> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are referin=
g to
> > >> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > >> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > >> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> > >> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against N=
adal,
> > >> >> for example?
>
> > >> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and neede=
d
> > >> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>
> > >> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
>
> > >> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise ins=
ide
> > >> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fact
> > >> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way to
> > >> extinction.
>
> > > A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impending
> > > extinction of a style.
>
> > There's got to be some explanation for even an impending doom. Kuerten
> > is an answer to those who think the one hander isn't adaptable to the
> > topspinning environment.
>
> > > Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in the
> > > current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality.
>
> > You can't slice it thinner than that.
>
> > > Perhaps the
> > > pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not. Bu=
t
> > > right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses of
> > > ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.
>
> > Another hypothesis would run like this:
>
> > Boys and girls starting tennis go through the same process, adopt their
> > preferred 2H BH for the same reasons. This has been going on for, like,
> > 20-30 years now.
>
> > How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thousands=
?
> > If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha ATP
> > also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
> > increase from the starting point of 0.1%.
>
> > Given the proper niche, the 1 hander prospers. Elsewhere, it dies.
>
> I have a friend who coaches quite successfully at the
> college level. We've talked about this issue quite a bit,
> and what he has told me is that that game (one-hander,
> getting to net, cutting off the court) is simply not taught
> at the earlier stages. Period. Too much trouble atm,
> too slow rate of return (today); and he ends up with
> extremely proficient players *who don't know that
> part of the game*. It's simply being lost. All we can
> hope for are grand exceptions a la Federer (and it's
> surprising and sad that many are glad to see him fail).

Yes, it's ironic, isn't it? Every Fed loss to Nadal is in a sense a
defeat for Federer's style as well, at least in terms of influence on
future players. People notice. It was the obvious backhand problem in
the AO final that led to all these "demise of the one-handed backhand"
discussions since then.

Joe Ramirez


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 18:00:06
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 6, 7:03=A0pm, Lax <Lax.Cla...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 6, 3:20=A0pm, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 10:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUp=
MWEE9PQ
>
> > > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of hi=
s
> > > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> > > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> > > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > > rally with his backhand.
>
> > > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > > quickly of the backhand trap.
>
> > One more thing, no one talked about it here, but I noticed in many
> > matches for Nadal on clay.
> > It's not only Federer or the other players that get troubled by
> > Nadal's high bouncing balls, the reality is Nadal has the same exact
> > problem and may be more =A0dealing with high balls.
> > Nadal is too good putting a lot of spin/power on these low balls (as
> > we discussed dealing with low sliced balls), but when the ball is
> > coming to him high, for some reason, it takes him a lot of effort to
> > deal with it on the FH and BH sides and he is unable to put any pace
> > on the balls.
>
> > On clay, the game goes this way, Nadal tries to spin the ball higher,
> > and the other players try to bring it down with pace. But no one tries
> > to play the same exact game Nadal plays.
>
> > Someone here posted the Federer should moonball Nadal, it's true and
> > it will work for all players, but the problem is no one plays this
> > way.
>
> > I'm talking abuot playing on clay.
>
> A moonball is not good enough. =A0It has to be a Nadal-ish type shot
> which has pace and a lot of spin.
> You'd need to bring back Mariano Puerta.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Nadal's shots are close to moonballs but they are not there.


 
Date: 07 Feb 2009 01:37:46
From: Carey
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side


p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> Joe Ramirez <josephmramirez@netzero.com> writes:
>
> > On Feb 6, 2:41?pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> >> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> >> > On Feb 5, 12:37?pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06?pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> >> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> >> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
> >>
> >> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> >> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> >> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
> >>
> >> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> >> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> >> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> >> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
> >>
> >> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> >> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal,
> >> >> for example?
> >>
> >> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
> >> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
> >>
> >> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
> >>
> >> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise inside
> >> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fact
> >> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way to
> >> extinction.
> >
> > A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impending
> > extinction of a style.
>
> There's got to be some explanation for even an impending doom. Kuerten
> is an answer to those who think the one hander isn't adaptable to the
> topspinning environment.
>
> > Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in the
> > current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality.
>
> You can't slice it thinner than that.
>
> > Perhaps the
> > pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not. But
> > right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses of
> > ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.
>
> Another hypothesis would run like this:
>
> Boys and girls starting tennis go through the same process, adopt their
> preferred 2H BH for the same reasons. This has been going on for, like,
> 20-30 years now.
>
> How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thousands?
> If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha ATP
> also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
> increase from the starting point of 0.1%.
>
> Given the proper niche, the 1 hander prospers. Elsewhere, it dies.
I have a friend who coaches quite successfully at the
college level. We've talked about this issue quite a bit,
and what he has told me is that that game (one-hander,
getting to net, cutting off the court) is simply not taught
at the earlier stages. Period. Too much trouble atm,
too slow rate of return (today); and he ends up with
extremely proficient players *who don't know that
part of the game*. It's simply being lost. All we can
hope for are grand exceptions a la Federer (and it's
surprising and sad that many are glad to see him fail).


  
Date: 07 Feb 2009 21:08:42
From: Whisper
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
Carey wrote:
>
> p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
>> How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thousands?
>> If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha ATP
>> also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
>> increase from the starting point of 0.1%.
>>
>> Given the proper niche, the 1 hander prospers. Elsewhere, it dies.
> I have a friend who coaches quite successfully at the
> college level. We've talked about this issue quite a bit,
> and what he has told me is that that game (one-hander,
> getting to net, cutting off the court) is simply not taught
> at the earlier stages. Period. Too much trouble atm,
> too slow rate of return (today); and he ends up with
> extremely proficient players *who don't know that
> part of the game*. It's simply being lost.


Agreed. What's needed is people who really know tennis (& care to get
involved) to get in at the grassroots level & give kids an understanding
of the options out there (I could do it but life's too short). I played
a very good junior today in the Ladder comp (gave me my toughest match
so far 61 76). He had a massive serve & single H bh - the times he came
in he volleyed nice winners deep into the corners.

He was keen for my advice after the match & told him to work on
developing a consistent ball toss so he can get his big serves in
consistently, & charge the net. Until he sorts out his ball toss he'll
struggle to get a reliable serve pattern going. I told him to ignore
the few times he'll get passed & just keep coming in on his big shots -
this forces opponents to go for too much & they will give him plenty of
freebies.

The kid was a sponge & taking it all in so I'll have to see how he goes.
He said he's never played anyone like me who varies the shots so much
he never knew what was coming.


> All we can
> hope for are grand exceptions a la Federer (and it's
> surprising and sad that many are glad to see him fail).


You have a point... ; )

My objections re Federer relate to claims of goatness, which he most
certainly is not as far as ability goes. He's top 10 but not the guy
who 'took tennis to a new level' or showed unprecedented talent.




 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 16:03:38
From: Lax
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 6, 3:20=A0pm, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMW=
EE9PQ
>
> > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > rally with his backhand.
>
> > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > quickly of the backhand trap.
>
> One more thing, no one talked about it here, but I noticed in many
> matches for Nadal on clay.
> It's not only Federer or the other players that get troubled by
> Nadal's high bouncing balls, the reality is Nadal has the same exact
> problem and may be more =A0dealing with high balls.
> Nadal is too good putting a lot of spin/power on these low balls (as
> we discussed dealing with low sliced balls), but when the ball is
> coming to him high, for some reason, it takes him a lot of effort to
> deal with it on the FH and BH sides and he is unable to put any pace
> on the balls.
>
> On clay, the game goes this way, Nadal tries to spin the ball higher,
> and the other players try to bring it down with pace. But no one tries
> to play the same exact game Nadal plays.
>
> Someone here posted the Federer should moonball Nadal, it's true and
> it will work for all players, but the problem is no one plays this
> way.
>
> I'm talking abuot playing on clay.
>

A moonball is not good enough. It has to be a Nadal-ish type shot
which has pace and a lot of spin.
You'd need to bring back Mariano Puerta.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 12:56:22
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 6, 3:17=A0pm, "arnab.z@gmail" <arnab.zah...@gmail.com > wrote:
> I have somewhat given up on the chances of Federer taking care of it. I=
t is
> less irritating that way. :)

I've noticed that and I think you are right, I don't think it will
change, probably only if he got help.




 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 12:20:33
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com > wrote:
> Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE=
9PQ
>
> Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> rally with his backhand.
>
> This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> quickly of the backhand trap.

One more thing, no one talked about it here, but I noticed in many
matches for Nadal on clay.
It's not only Federer or the other players that get troubled by
Nadal's high bouncing balls, the reality is Nadal has the same exact
problem and may be more dealing with high balls.
Nadal is too good putting a lot of spin/power on these low balls (as
we discussed dealing with low sliced balls), but when the ball is
coming to him high, for some reason, it takes him a lot of effort to
deal with it on the FH and BH sides and he is unable to put any pace
on the balls.

On clay, the game goes this way, Nadal tries to spin the ball higher,
and the other players try to bring it down with pace. But no one tries
to play the same exact game Nadal plays.

Someone here posted the Federer should moonball Nadal, it's true and
it will work for all players, but the problem is no one plays this
way.

I'm talking abuot playing on clay.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 12:17:47
From: arnab.z@gmail
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side


wkhedr wrote:

> >
> > Federer just can't find the right mix of patience and aggression with
> > those high balls to his backhand. Since he has tried and failed so
> > many times, I guess it's really hard to do. No amount of brainstorming
> > here is going to cover up Federer's bh weakness against Nadal's
> > topspin fh.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> There are ways that Federer does not commit to since he abandons them
> the first point he loses.

For me, it's just irritating to see Federer mentally clam up like
that. But that's how it has been for the last so many matches. I have
somewhat given up on the chances of Federer taking care of it. It is
less irritating that way. :)


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 12:13:35
From: andrew.reys@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 6, 6:55 am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 4:01 pm, "andrew.r...@gmail.com" <andrew.r...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 9:33 am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 5, 12:22 pm, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > > > extinct.
>
> > > Of course it's premature -- some players still use it. However, it may
> > > not be premature to say that the one-handed backhand is *heading for
> > > extinction* at the top pro level.
>
> > > There was an entire thread on this topic earlier this week.
> > > Personally, I find the arguments against the one-hander -- for today's
> > > pro game -- to be compelling.
>
> > > Joe Ramirez
>
> > Interesting, because I see it heading in a completely different
> > direction. If you look at the history of the one-hander, it has only
> > recently (say, 20 years, if not less) become a viable offensive
> > weapon. And it's only gotten better in that time. Far from becoming
> > extinct, I think it'll gain in popularity as more and more players
> > show that it is more than capable of being an offensive weapon. It's
> > not as common because it's more difficult to pick up as a young kid
> > starting out (since you need some strength in the arm/shoulder to pull
> > it off), but I'd like to see it in 5 years. I know we had a similar
> > discussion in this group maybe two years ago, and at the time I
> > pointed out that something like 6 or 7 out of the top 10 were 1-
> > handers (Fed, Gasquet, Blake, Ljubocic, and several others I can't
> > recall), and that the number of 1-handers in the top-50 were
> > disproportionately higher than those which, in my experience, exist at
> > the club and college level.
>
> Federer is currently the only player in the top 10 with a one-handed
> backhand.
>
> Joe Ramirez

Yes, but let's see what happens, as this is something that will likely
vary with some regularity outside of the current top 4.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 12:12:01
From: arnab.z@gmail
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 7, 1:45=A0am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com > wrote:
> On Feb 6, 2:41=A0pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
>
>
>
> > tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> > > On Feb 5, 12:37=A0pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > >> > On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a singl=
e
> > >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage=
,
> > >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal=
,
>
> > >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> > >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering t=
o
> > >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> > >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nada=
l,
> > >> for example?
>
> > > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
> > > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>
> > You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
>
> > Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise inside
> > the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fact
> > the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way to
> > extinction.
>
> A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impending
> extinction of a style.
>
> Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in the
> current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality. Perhaps the
> pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not. But
> right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses of
> ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.
>
> Joe Ramirez

I would like to note that one handed bh players have won most of the
slams in the past few years. Ok, it was overwhelmingly one person,
Federer. Also remember that Gaudio won the French Open in 2004, which
means in that year, all slams were won by players with a one-handed
backhand. Blake is hanging in there in the top 10/20 for a long time
with his 1hbh as well. Then we have Gasquet, who is another top-20 or
thereabouts kinda guy.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 12:04:44
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 6, 2:24=A0pm, "arnab.z@gmail" <arnab.zah...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 6, 8:13=A0am, TennisGuy <Jeffery21...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 4:16=A0pm, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > It doesn't matter who won the point, what matters is Federer against
> > > any other player would have jumped on any of these balls with his FH
> > > trying to finish the point. Two or three years ago, Federer would wai=
t
> > > for the moment to take control of the rally by his forehand.
>
> > =A0Look, here's the reality.
>
> > When a ball is coming at you from Nadal, with wicked forehand topspin
> > to your back hand, it doesn't matter whether you grab a hold of your
> > racket with one hand, two hands, or two hands and a foot!
>
> > The ball will still be shoulder height or higher.
> > Name me one player on tour who can fire off bullet backhands with two
> > hands, when the ball is at shoulder height or higher?
>
> Safin should be able to do it, but he never gets deep enough to meet
> Nadal, and he has many other weaknesses that Nadal can easily exploit.
> But this is all very theoretical.
>
> Federer just can't find the right mix of patience and aggression with
> those high balls to his backhand. Since he has tried and failed so
> many times, I guess it's really hard to do. No amount of brainstorming
> here is going to cover up Federer's bh weakness against Nadal's
> topspin fh.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

There are ways that Federer does not commit to since he abandons them
the first point he loses.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 10:37:33
From: Lax
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 6, 12:12=A0pm, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 11:35=A0am, drew <d...@technologist.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 5, 11:08 am, Lax <Lax.Cla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > It is a mental issue. =A0He is scared of Rafa, fullstop.
>
> > It is a mental issue but it is borne out of fear that he is up against
> > a guy who has the game to beat him.
>
> > > Nadal was there for the taking (due to Verdasco match), and Fed still
> > > coudln't do the job.
>
> > Nadal is #1 and he deserves it completely. =A0He'll never have the
> > smooth execution of a guy like Federer but he has some other amazing
> > attributes that are equally admirable.
>
> Bullshit. =A0The only reason Nadal wins that match is he's able to come
> to the court at 100% of his fitness level, never mind the 5.25 hour
> match the day before.

Explain.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 12:01:19
From: andrew.reys@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 2:57 pm, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Feb 5, 3:03 pm, "andrew.r...@gmail.com" <andrew.r...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 10:47 am, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 5, 12:37 pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > > > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > > > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > > > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > > > > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> > > > > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>
> > > > Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> > > > days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> > > > topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > > > anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > > > That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> > > > returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal,
> > > > for example?
>
> > > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
> > > tad bit of extra time to set-up. He would've held on a bit longer but
> > > eventually crumble after Rafa cranked up the speed.
>
> > His wind-up was huge, but I don't think you've got much of an argument
> > as far as the time it took him to prepare, considering this guy took
> > out Sampras in straights on a quick HC. If he could get his backhand
> > ready in time for those serves and forehands, I think he'd be just
> > fine against Rafa when he "cranked up the speed." His height would
> > also mitigate a lot of that topspin.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> the same Sampras took care of Guga 2 and 3 and also beat him on slow
> hard corts of Miami.
> You shouldn't be looking at those one off win over Sampras when he was
> on decline as an indicator of Gaga's backhand.

Sure, Sampras was a better overall player - with the exception of clay
- and beat Guga for that reason and not because Kuerten had trouble on
the backhand side. My point is that if Guga can handle a Sampras shot
to the backhand, I see no reason to think that his wind-up would hurt
him against Nadal, who generates tremendous topspin but not the
blinding pace Sampras did.

> It's elementary, a *huge* wind-up requires more time to hit the shot
> unless higher racquet head speed compensates that, which Guga did not
> have on his backhand. he generated the power from the wind-up and the
> body rotation.

This makes zero sense. If he can't generate sufficient racket speeds
on the backhand(a blanket statement you made), how is a bigger wind-up
going to "compensate"?


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 11:56:18
From: andrew.reys@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 1:27 pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On 5 Feb, 21:02, "andrew.r...@gmail.com" <andrew.r...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 10:37 am, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > > > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> > > > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>
> > > Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> > > days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> > > topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > > anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > How do double-handers have a reach advantage?
>
> When coming over the ball to hit topspin, the left hand can reach out
> further to the left than the right hand can. Single handers, of
> course, can still stab at the ball to hit slice.

Except with a two-hander you have two hands on the racket, which
limits your reach significantly. I'd agree that a lefty hitting a
forehand would have greater reach than a righty hitting a 1-handed
backhand, but there is no situation where a two-hander has better
reach than a one-hander on the backhand side.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 11:45:49
From: Joe Ramirez
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 6, 2:41=A0pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
> > On Feb 5, 12:37=A0pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>
> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal,
> >> for example?
>
> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>
> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
>
> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise inside
> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fact
> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way to
> extinction.

A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impending
extinction of a style.

Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in the
current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality. Perhaps the
pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not. But
right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses of
ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.

Joe Ramirez


  
Date: 07 Feb 2009 11:19:51
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
Joe Ramirez <josephmramirez@netzero.com > writes:

> On Feb 6, 2:41 pm, p...@me.not.invalid wrote:
>> tennis41...@yahoo.com writes:
>> > On Feb 5, 12:37 pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >> > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
>> >> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
>> >> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>>
>> >> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
>> >> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
>> >> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>>
>> >> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
>> >> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
>> >> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
>> >> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>>
>> >> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
>> >> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal,
>> >> for example?
>>
>> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
>> > tad bit of extra time to set-up.
>>
>> You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.
>>
>> Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise inside
>> the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fact
>> the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way to
>> extinction.
>
> A retired player can't be the answer to any question about impending
> extinction of a style.

There's got to be some explanation for even an impending doom. Kuerten
is an answer to those who think the one hander isn't adaptable to the
topspinning environment.

> Did you see my upstream post mentioning that only one player in the
> current top 10 uses a one-hander? That's the reality.

You can't slice it thinner than that.

> Perhaps the
> pendulum will start to swing the other way again, but perhaps not. But
> right now the empirical evidence -- rather than abstract analyses of
> ideal swings -- favors the extinction hypothesis.

Another hypothesis would run like this:

Boys and girls starting tennis go through the same process, adopt their
preferred 2H BH for the same reasons. This has been going on for, like,
20-30 years now.

How many WTA pros under 30 hit the BH with one hand? 5 out of thousands?
If the WTA is an indicator, the 1 hander should be extinct in tha ATP
also. Yet, 1/3 of the top 30 hit with a 1 hander. That's a solid
increase from the starting point of 0.1%.

Given the proper niche, the 1 hander prospers. Elsewhere, it dies.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 11:24:44
From: arnab.z@gmail
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 6, 8:13=A0am, TennisGuy <Jeffery21...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 4:16=A0pm, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > It doesn't matter who won the point, what matters is Federer against
> > any other player would have jumped on any of these balls with his FH
> > trying to finish the point. Two or three years ago, Federer would wait
> > for the moment to take control of the rally by his forehand.
>
> =A0Look, here's the reality.
>
> When a ball is coming at you from Nadal, with wicked forehand topspin
> to your back hand, it doesn't matter whether you grab a hold of your
> racket with one hand, two hands, or two hands and a foot!
>
> The ball will still be shoulder height or higher.
> Name me one player on tour who can fire off bullet backhands with two
> hands, when the ball is at shoulder height or higher?
>

Safin should be able to do it, but he never gets deep enough to meet
Nadal, and he has many other weaknesses that Nadal can easily exploit.
But this is all very theoretical.

Federer just can't find the right mix of patience and aggression with
those high balls to his backhand. Since he has tried and failed so
many times, I guess it's really hard to do. No amount of brainstorming
here is going to cover up Federer's bh weakness against Nadal's
topspin fh.



 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 09:12:12
From: Scott
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 11:35=A0am, drew <d...@technologist.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 11:08 am, Lax <Lax.Cla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It is a mental issue. =A0He is scared of Rafa, fullstop.
>
> It is a mental issue but it is borne out of fear that he is up against
> a guy who has the game to beat him.
>
>
>
> > Nadal was there for the taking (due to Verdasco match), and Fed still
> > coudln't do the job.
>
> Nadal is #1 and he deserves it completely. =A0He'll never have the
> smooth execution of a guy like Federer but he has some other amazing
> attributes that are equally admirable.

Bullshit. The only reason Nadal wins that match is he's able to come
to the court at 100% of his fitness level, never mind the 5.25 hour
match the day before.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 06:55:00
From: Joe Ramirez
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 4:01=A0pm, "andrew.r...@gmail.com" <andrew.r...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:33 am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 12:22 pm, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > > extinct.
>
> > Of course it's premature -- some players still use it. However, it may
> > not be premature to say that the one-handed backhand is *heading for
> > extinction* at the top pro level.
>
> > There was an entire thread on this topic earlier this week.
> > Personally, I find the arguments against the one-hander -- for today's
> > pro game -- to be compelling.
>
> > Joe Ramirez
>
> Interesting, because I see it heading in a completely different
> direction. If you look at the history of the one-hander, it has only
> recently (say, 20 years, if not less) become a viable offensive
> weapon. And it's only gotten better in that time. Far from becoming
> extinct, I think it'll gain in popularity as more and more players
> show that it is more than capable of being an offensive weapon. It's
> not as common because it's more difficult to pick up as a young kid
> starting out (since you need some strength in the arm/shoulder to pull
> it off), but I'd like to see it in 5 years. I know we had a similar
> discussion in this group maybe two years ago, and at the time I
> pointed out that something like 6 or 7 out of the top 10 were 1-
> handers (Fed, Gasquet, Blake, Ljubocic, and several others I can't
> recall), and that the number of 1-handers in the top-50 were
> disproportionately higher than those which, in my experience, exist at
> the club and college level.

Federer is currently the only player in the top 10 with a one-handed
backhand.

Joe Ramirez


  
Date: 06 Feb 2009 22:49:08
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
Joe Ramirez <josephmramirez@netzero.com > writes:

> On Feb 5, 4:01 pm, "andrew.r...@gmail.com" <andrew.r...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Feb 5, 9:33 am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 5, 12:22 pm, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
>> > > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
>> > > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>>
>> > > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
>> > > extinct.
>>
>> > Of course it's premature -- some players still use it. However, it may
>> > not be premature to say that the one-handed backhand is *heading for
>> > extinction* at the top pro level.
>>
>> > There was an entire thread on this topic earlier this week.
>> > Personally, I find the arguments against the one-hander -- for today's
>> > pro game -- to be compelling.
>>
>> > Joe Ramirez
>>
>> Interesting, because I see it heading in a completely different
>> direction. If you look at the history of the one-hander, it has only
>> recently (say, 20 years, if not less) become a viable offensive
>> weapon. And it's only gotten better in that time. Far from becoming
>> extinct, I think it'll gain in popularity as more and more players
>> show that it is more than capable of being an offensive weapon. It's
>> not as common because it's more difficult to pick up as a young kid
>> starting out (since you need some strength in the arm/shoulder to pull
>> it off), but I'd like to see it in 5 years. I know we had a similar
>> discussion in this group maybe two years ago, and at the time I
>> pointed out that something like 6 or 7 out of the top 10 were 1-
>> handers (Fed, Gasquet, Blake, Ljubocic, and several others I can't
>> recall), and that the number of 1-handers in the top-50 were
>> disproportionately higher than those which, in my experience, exist at
>> the club and college level.
>
> Federer is currently the only player in the top 10 with a one-handed
> backhand.

The top 30 has 10 1Hers of which 8-10 have been in the top 10 at one
time or another. Anybody with the proportion of 1Hers in the top 30 of
different juniors? Any part of the world will do.


 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 11:47:25
From: Richard Eich
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
wkhedr@my-deja.com wrote...
> Look at this video: https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE9PQ
>
> Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> rally with his backhand.
>
> This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> quickly of the backhand trap.

It's so nice to see a discussion about TENNIS here. Thank you.

--
Knowledge is power.
Power corrupts.
Therefore, knowledge corrupts ?


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 18:49:39
From: PeteWasLucky
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 9:13=A0pm, TennisGuy <Jeffery21...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 4:16=A0pm, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > It doesn't matter who won the point, what matters is Federer against
> > any other player would have jumped on any of these balls with his FH
> > trying to finish the point. Two or three years ago, Federer would wait
> > for the moment to take control of the rally by his forehand.
>
> =A0Look, here's the reality.
>
> When a ball is coming at you from Nadal, with wicked forehand topspin
> to your back hand, it doesn't matter whether you grab a hold of your
> racket with one hand, two hands, or two hands and a foot!
>
> The ball will still be shoulder height or higher.
> Name me one player on tour who can fire off bullet backhands with two
> hands, when the ball is at shoulder height or higher?
>
> There are three possible strategies to deal with the topspin shots
> from Nadal.
>
> 1. Stand back further, a la Murray, he wasn't too troubled by the
> fh's.
> 2. Slice the shots back low.
> 3. Take the ball early before it reaches shoulder height, a la Agassi,
> Connors etc.

Please read my original post, I'm not talking about attacking with the
backhand, I'm talking about using the the forehand. Watch the rally,
and see when Federer finally hits a backhand dtl to Nadal's bh, Nadal
sends the ball to the middle of the court, at that time, Federer had
the chance to use his fh, somehow he started using his bh again.
What I'm discussing, is that any aggressive player like Federer &
Sampras, don't like to be under pressure and on the defense, they try
to find a way to get out of the backhand rally trap to take over with
the FH.
For Federer against Nadal, there are two options, a deep slice to
Nadal's bh or a drive/topspin bh dtl. any of these two have a good
chance to switch the direction of the rally.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 18:13:20
From: TennisGuy
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 4:16=A0pm, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com > wrote:

> It doesn't matter who won the point, what matters is Federer against
> any other player would have jumped on any of these balls with his FH
> trying to finish the point. Two or three years ago, Federer would wait
> for the moment to take control of the rally by his forehand.

Look, here's the reality.

When a ball is coming at you from Nadal, with wicked forehand topspin
to your back hand, it doesn't matter whether you grab a hold of your
racket with one hand, two hands, or two hands and a foot!

The ball will still be shoulder height or higher.
Name me one player on tour who can fire off bullet backhands with two
hands, when the ball is at shoulder height or higher?

There are three possible strategies to deal with the topspin shots
from Nadal.

1. Stand back further, a la Murray, he wasn't too troubled by the
fh's.
2. Slice the shots back low.
3. Take the ball early before it reaches shoulder height, a la Agassi,
Connors etc.





 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 17:59:29
From: number_six
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 7:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com > wrote:
> Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE=
9PQ
>
> Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> rally with his backhand.
>
> This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> quickly of the backhand trap.

He is a stranger, and afraid;
In a world he never made.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 13:27:44
From: robin
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On 5 Feb, 21:02, "andrew.r...@gmail.com" <andrew.r...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:37 am, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> > > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>
> > Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> > days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> > topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> How do double-handers have a reach advantage?

When coming over the ball to hit topspin, the left hand can reach out
further to the left than the right hand can. Single handers, of
course, can still stab at the ball to hit slice.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 14:57:19
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 3:03=A0pm, "andrew.r...@gmail.com" <andrew.r...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:47 am, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 12:37 pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > > > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> > > > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>
> > > Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> > > days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> > > topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > > anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > > That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> > > returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal=
,
> > > for example?
>
> > Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
> > tad bit of extra time to set-up. He would've =A0held on a bit longer bu=
t
> > eventually crumble after Rafa cranked up the speed.
>
> His wind-up was huge, but I don't think you've got much of an argument
> as far as the time it took him to prepare, considering this guy took
> out Sampras in straights on a quick HC. If he could get his backhand
> ready in time for those serves and forehands, I think he'd be just
> fine against Rafa when he "cranked up the speed." His height would
> also mitigate a lot of that topspin.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

the same Sampras took care of Guga 2 and 3 and also beat him on slow
hard corts of Miami.
You shouldn't be looking at those one off win over Sampras when he was
on decline as an indicator of Gaga's backhand.

It's elementary, a *huge* wind-up requires more time to hit the shot
unless higher racquet head speed compensates that, which Guga did not
have on his backhand. he generated the power from the wind-up and the
body rotation.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 13:16:28
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 2:43=A0pm, TennisGuy <Jeffery21...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> =A0In general you are right.
> But this is a poor example because:
> a) Fed won the point
> b) Nadal had many opportunities to flatten out his forehand and rip
> it,
> =A0 =A0 but was 'content' to just spin in fh topspins, so Fed didn't feel
> he needed
> =A0 =A0 to get away from his bh.

It doesn't matter who won the point, what matters is Federer against
any other player would have jumped on any of these balls with his FH
trying to finish the point. Two or three years ago, Federer would wait
for the moment to take control of the rally by his forehand.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 13:03:57
From: andrew.reys@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:47 am, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Feb 5, 12:37 pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> > > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>
> > Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> > days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> > topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> > anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> > That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> > returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal,
> > for example?
>
> Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
> tad bit of extra time to set-up. He would've held on a bit longer but
> eventually crumble after Rafa cranked up the speed.

His wind-up was huge, but I don't think you've got much of an argument
as far as the time it took him to prepare, considering this guy took
out Sampras in straights on a quick HC. If he could get his backhand
ready in time for those serves and forehands, I think he'd be just
fine against Rafa when he "cranked up the speed." His height would
also mitigate a lot of that topspin.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 13:02:59
From: andrew.reys@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:37 am, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>
> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> anything, a slight reach advantage.

How do double-handers have a reach advantage?


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 13:01:19
From: andrew.reys@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 9:33 am, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 12:22 pm, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > extinct.
>
> Of course it's premature -- some players still use it. However, it may
> not be premature to say that the one-handed backhand is *heading for
> extinction* at the top pro level.
>
> There was an entire thread on this topic earlier this week.
> Personally, I find the arguments against the one-hander -- for today's
> pro game -- to be compelling.
>
> Joe Ramirez

Interesting, because I see it heading in a completely different
direction. If you look at the history of the one-hander, it has only
recently (say, 20 years, if not less) become a viable offensive
weapon. And it's only gotten better in that time. Far from becoming
extinct, I think it'll gain in popularity as more and more players
show that it is more than capable of being an offensive weapon. It's
not as common because it's more difficult to pick up as a young kid
starting out (since you need some strength in the arm/shoulder to pull
it off), but I'd like to see it in 5 years. I know we had a similar
discussion in this group maybe two years ago, and at the time I
pointed out that something like 6 or 7 out of the top 10 were 1-
handers (Fed, Gasquet, Blake, Ljubocic, and several others I can't
recall), and that the number of 1-handers in the top-50 were
disproportionately higher than those which, in my experience, exist at
the club and college level.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 11:18:02
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 12:57=A0pm, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well... Federer has a trusted fitness trainer whom he's using for
> years now. I don't think he went anywhere. He might have cut down on
> his training... age catches up with everybody.

Maybe he needs a new fitness trainer who will make different choices,
then. With 13 slams, I can understand why he'd trust the guy, but if
ever there's a time to shake things up, this is it.

Age is likely a non-factor for him right now. It is funny when people
refer to Federer, not yet age 28, as if he's Jimmy Connors at 39.
There is no significant drop-off at Federer's age.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 11:17:55
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 12:57=A0pm, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well... Federer has a trusted fitness trainer whom he's using for
> years now. I don't think he went anywhere. He might have cut down on
> his training... age catches up with everybody.

Maybe he needs a new fitness trainer who will make different choices,
then. With 13 slams, I can understand why he'd trust the guy, but if
ever there's a time to shake things up, this is it.

Age is likely a non-factor for him right now. It is funny when people
refer to Federer, not yet age 28, as if he's Jimmy Connors at 39.
There is no significant drop-off at Federer's age.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 12:26:51
From: arnab.z@gmail
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 6, 12:50=A0am, Javier Gonzalez <ja.gon....@gmmmmail.com > wrote:

>
> A better point to look for would be Gaudio. Gaudio is tiny (shorter
> than I am at 175cm!)

That's small for a tennis player. Coria must be really small then.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 11:43:32
From: TennisGuy
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com > wrote:
>
> Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?

In general you are right.
But this is a poor example because:
a) Fed won the point
b) Nadal had many opportunities to flatten out his forehand and rip
it,
but was 'content' to just spin in fh topspins, so Fed didn't feel
he needed
to get away from his bh.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 10:47:34
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 12:37=A0pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>
> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal,
> for example?

Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
tad bit of extra time to set-up. He would've held on a bit longer but
eventually crumble after Rafa cranked up the speed.


  
Date: 06 Feb 2009 21:41:15
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
tennis41ife@yahoo.com writes:

> On Feb 5, 12:37 pm, robin <robinson.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
>> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
>> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>>
>> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
>> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
>> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>>
>> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
>> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
>> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
>> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>>
>> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
>> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal,
>> for example?
>
> Guga's forehand while more powerful had a bigger wind-up and needed
> tad bit of extra time to set-up.

You consider the FH in response to BH ponderings? Well, why not.

Be it as it may, Kuerten had no problems taking spin on the rise inside
the court on either side. Regardless of windups. Kuerten is in fact
the perfect answer to the speculation that the 1HBH is on its way to
extinction.

> He would've held on a bit longer but
> eventually crumble after Rafa cranked up the speed.

I doubt anything Nadal would bring on the court would make
Kuerten actually crumble. He played a lot of speed (Sampper, Agassi,
Federer) and spin (Bruguera, Federer, etc) in his time.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 10:37:19
From: robin
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,

Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
anything, a slight reach advantage.

That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal,
for example?



  
Date: 05 Feb 2009 15:50:59
From: Javier Gonzalez
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
robin <robinson.neil@gmail.com > wrote:
> On 5 Feb, 17:22, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Feb 5, 12:06 pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
>> > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
>> > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>>
>> I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
>> extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
>> which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
>
> Pretty much all double handers can hit single handed slice, these
> days. When discussing double versus single handed, we are refering to
> topspin. In terms of topspin, double handers actually have, if
> anything, a slight reach advantage.
>
> That said, there have been single handers more comfortable with
> returning heavy topspin kickers. How would Kuerten fair against Nadal,
> for example?

Kuerten is very tall and used an extreme backhand grip. He isn't exactly a
common one-hander.

(would have loved to see some matches between those two).

A better point to look for would be Gaudio. Gaudio is tiny (shorter
than I am at 175cm!) but he never had too much trouble against the high
topspin to his BH.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 10:18:12
From: arnab.z@gmail
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 11:57=A0pm, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Feb 5, 11:22=A0am, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> > I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> > extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> > which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
> > with his optimal youth and fitness, compensates for any coverage lost,
> > and maximizes all advantages of the two-hander. When he gets older,
> > this may be harder, but Federer's problem is that he has to deal with
> > Nadal *now* rather than five years from now.
>
> > I know you weren't serious about Federer going to a two-handed
> > backhand at this point in his career, but there are other options,
> > including some that people have suggested already. First is getting a
> > fitness trainer so he can maximize his own speed and court coverage.
>
> Well... Federer has a trusted fitness trainer whom he's using for
> years now. I don't think he went anywhere. He might have cut down on
> his training... age catches up with everybody.
>
> > The idea of running around a few more backhands isn't bad either.
>
> this was a very effective play for Federer (and even now) in the
> 2004-2007 period. He was a brilliant exponent of running around left
> of the center ball and going for an inside-out forehand and take
> control of the point. So the idea that Federer somehow isn't aware of
> this tactic is misplaced.
>
> > The few times he did do it last week were effective. True, this carries
> > its own risks, but better to take a risk with his biggest weapon than
> > to stay trapped in a corner hitting weak backhands for Nadal to tee
> > off on.
>
> this work very well against the righties. Against Nadal, this send the
> ball right to his strike zone. With Nadal's ability to hit down the
> line forehands on run this is very risky. And Fed doesn't really crush
> the ball with his forehand the way Blake or Tsonga does. Fed will have
> a lot of court to cover if he decides to run around his forehand
> regularly. It's a low percentage play for him.

Sure. But a win against Nadal isn't out of question. If he serves a
bit better (60% every set), gets a bit more aggressive, Nadal will
lose. He can't let these close losses get into his head.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 10:16:12
From: The MAN
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 9:21=A0am, "arnab.z@gmail" <arnab.zah...@gmail.com > wrote:
> wkhedr wrote:
> > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMW=
EE9PQ
>
> > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > rally with his backhand.
>
> > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > quickly of the backhand trap.
>
> Yeah, Federer needs to get out of the backhand trap as quickly is as
> possible against Nadal, except that he can't. He does the same with
> the rest of the tour. He plays most of the rallies on autopilot and
> when he decides to wake up and get aggressive, the other guy usually
> gives up, Federer wins the point and gets a positive feedback, and he
> gets accustomed to this kind of play. Except when he plays Nadal, then
> he is in deep shit. His usual choice about when to pick the right
> moment to get aggressive doesn't just work against Nadal. He tries to
> play Nadal the same semi-passive, semi-reactive way as he plays
> against eveybody else, and it doesn't work.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Well said. He needs to sit down with a good
coach, and watch all his recent losses to Nadal in slow mo.

Fed doesn't have to much problem with the rest
of the players, so i don't see a problem with him modifying
his game when he plays Nadal. HE WILL NEVER BEAT NADAL
AGAIN IF HE DOESN'T TRY A DIFFERENT APPROACH.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 09:57:41
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 11:22=A0am, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
> which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
> with his optimal youth and fitness, compensates for any coverage lost,
> and maximizes all advantages of the two-hander. When he gets older,
> this may be harder, but Federer's problem is that he has to deal with
> Nadal *now* rather than five years from now.
>
> I know you weren't serious about Federer going to a two-handed
> backhand at this point in his career, but there are other options,
> including some that people have suggested already. First is getting a
> fitness trainer so he can maximize his own speed and court coverage.

Well... Federer has a trusted fitness trainer whom he's using for
years now. I don't think he went anywhere. He might have cut down on
his training... age catches up with everybody.

> The idea of running around a few more backhands isn't bad either.

this was a very effective play for Federer (and even now) in the
2004-2007 period. He was a brilliant exponent of running around left
of the center ball and going for an inside-out forehand and take
control of the point. So the idea that Federer somehow isn't aware of
this tactic is misplaced.

> The few times he did do it last week were effective. True, this carries
> its own risks, but better to take a risk with his biggest weapon than
> to stay trapped in a corner hitting weak backhands for Nadal to tee
> off on.

this work very well against the righties. Against Nadal, this send the
ball right to his strike zone. With Nadal's ability to hit down the
line forehands on run this is very risky. And Fed doesn't really crush
the ball with his forehand the way Blake or Tsonga does. Fed will have
a lot of court to cover if he decides to run around his forehand
regularly. It's a low percentage play for him.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 09:49:10
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 12:33=A0pm, Joe Ramirez <josephmrami...@netzero.com > wrote:

> Of course it's premature -- some players still use it. However, it may
> not be premature to say that the one-handed backhand is *heading for
> extinction* at the top pro level.

> There was an entire thread on this topic earlier this week.
> Personally, I find the arguments against the one-hander -- for today's
> pro game -- to be compelling.

I admit though to engaging in some wishful thinking here.One-handed
backhands were among some of the most beautiful strokes in history.
Therefore, I *hope* the one-hander isn't headed for extinction.

However, it looks like developments over the past ten years--
particularly technological--have made wickedly high-bounding balls
that were never seen in McEnroe's day now common. I don't know that
there's any technical adjustment a player can make to deal with those
shots aggressively with a one-hander. Djokovic (although he still
loses to Nadal for other reasons) handles the Nadal spin much better
than Federer on the backhand side, presumably because the two-hander
allows this.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 09:40:25
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:29=A0am, drew <d...@technologist.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:59 am, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 9:28 am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUp=
MWEE9PQ
>
> > > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of hi=
s
> > > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> > > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> > > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > > rally with his backhand.
>
> > > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > > quickly of the backhand trap.
>
> > do you think Roche and Higueras were dummies? Rafa owns Fed in the
> > ground game, that's the main problem for Fed here. Fed would be scared
> > of Rafa's backhand now after the last match.
>
> Federer IS stubborn. =A0That's probably why he doesn't have a coach. =A0H=
e
> doesn't want advice and I think part-time coaches are probably the
> only way he goes when he thinks there is something he needs help with.
>
> I've been saying since before Federer had won even 6 majors that his
> backhand is a liability in as much as he cannot use it consistently as
> an offensive weapon.
>
> That's the trouble with most players and their one-handed backhands.
> They haven't developed the shot to be used as an offensive weapon.
> Gasquet is an exception. =A0There are probably others but he comes to
> mind immediately.
>
> It's difficult to change a successful game and it's potentially
> disastrous when you change your game just for the sake of trying to
> reverse a matchup problem. =A0You run the risk of creating problems that
> didn't exist previously.
>
> One-handed backhand fans are still a large percentage of tennis fans
> but it should be clear by now that the two-hander is worth learning
> and using.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

One of Federer's other main problem is that his 'garbage shot' (short
backhand cross-court slice) that works so well against right handers,
doesn't work against Nadal. He tees off forehand winners off that. His
down the line slice is also ineffective as Nadal's backhand takes
control of the point off that. The way I see it, Federer has very
limited options with his backhand slice against Nadal.

Fed has realized this by now. When he lost the first time against
Nadal the first time at FO, he believed he could come-up with a
counter strategy. But it didn't work out. By now he has given up on
it. He's just resigned to the fact that being a lefty Nadal is going
to have an upper hand in this exchange.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 09:33:39
From: Joe Ramirez
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 12:22=A0pm, moonki...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> > handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> > Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?
>
> I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
> extinct.

Of course it's premature -- some players still use it. However, it may
not be premature to say that the one-handed backhand is *heading for
extinction* at the top pro level.

There was an entire thread on this topic earlier this week.
Personally, I find the arguments against the one-hander -- for today's
pro game -- to be compelling.

Joe Ramirez


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 09:22:45
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 12:06=A0pm, Professor X <sueboka...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
> handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
> Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?

I believe it's premature to say that the one-handed backhand is
extinct. With the two-hander, you do sacrifice some court-coverage,
which is the appeal of a one-hander (aside from aesthetics). Nadal,
with his optimal youth and fitness, compensates for any coverage lost,
and maximizes all advantages of the two-hander. When he gets older,
this may be harder, but Federer's problem is that he has to deal with
Nadal *now* rather than five years from now.

I know you weren't serious about Federer going to a two-handed
backhand at this point in his career, but there are other options,
including some that people have suggested already. First is getting a
fitness trainer so he can maximize his own speed and court coverage.
The idea of running around a few more backhands isn't bad either. The
few times he did do it last week were effective. True, this carries
its own risks, but better to take a risk with his biggest weapon than
to stay trapped in a corner hitting weak backhands for Nadal to tee
off on.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 09:06:57
From: Professor X
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 3:28=A0pm, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com > wrote:
> Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE=
9PQ
>
> Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> rally with his backhand.
>
> This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> quickly of the backhand trap.

yet another obsessive post from fedfukhdr

Bottom line is that it's just too difficult for fed with a single
handed backhand. Their is no "way out" as such.
Maybe fed should start practicing with a two hander?


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:54:34
From: Lax
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
One thing you guys have to realize is that Nadal was not near his best
in that match. So Fed has to play a lot better (kind of like US Open
final) to have a chance of beating a fitter Nadal.





 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:48:21
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 11:44=A0am, undecided <cost...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMW=
EE9PQ
>
> > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > rally with his backhand.
>
> > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > quickly of the backhand trap.
>
> The problem is that his FH is not what it used to be. Nadal ran down a
> bunch of DTL forehands and sent them back with interest. Basically, I
> don't think Fed has enough pace on ANY of his shots to bother Rafa
> anymore.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Rafa in the video kept hitting tons of FH to Federer's bh without
being able to finish the point, it shows that his FH is not a killer
too. The court is slow like hell but there is a big difference when
Federer is playing with his FH than his BH.



 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:48:25
From: arnab.z@gmail
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:44=A0pm, undecided <cost...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMW=
EE9PQ
>
> > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > rally with his backhand.
>
> > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > quickly of the backhand trap.
>
> The problem is that his FH is not what it used to be. Nadal ran down a
> bunch of DTL forehands and sent them back with interest. Basically, I
> don't think Fed has enough pace on ANY of his shots to bother Rafa
> anymore.

Yeah, he needs to seriously get down and polish his groundstroke game.
Mono is gone, he needs to concentrate. Most of all, he needs to stop
listening to Sampras and chuck that half-arsed stuff out of the window.


  
Date: 06 Feb 2009 11:53:25
From: Richard Eich
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
arnab.zaheen@gmail.com wrote...
> On Feb 5, 10:44=A0pm, undecided <cost...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 5, 10:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUp=
MWEE9PQ
> >
> > > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of hi=
s
> > > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
> >
> > > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
> >
> > > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
> >
> > > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > > rally with his backhand.
> >
> > > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > > quickly of the backhand trap.
> >
> > The problem is that his FH is not what it used to be. Nadal ran down a
> > bunch of DTL forehands and sent them back with interest. Basically, I
> > don't think Fed has enough pace on ANY of his shots to bother Rafa
> > anymore.
>=20
> Yeah, he needs to seriously get down and polish his groundstroke game.
> Mono is gone, he needs to concentrate. Most of all, he needs to stop
> listening to Sampras and chuck that half-arsed stuff out of the window.

Listening to Sampras is like asking a general from the last war how=20
to fight the current war. Sampras, even if he wants to help, is only=20
informed by the previous era of technique and power.

--=20
Knowledge is power.
Power corrupts.
Therefore, knowledge corrupts ?


   
Date: 06 Feb 2009 23:12:56
From: Whisper
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
Richard Eich wrote:
> arnab.zaheen@gmail.com wrote...
>> On Feb 5, 10:44 pm, undecided <cost...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Feb 5, 10:28 am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE9PQ
>>>> Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
>>>> backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>>>> The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
>>>> pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>>>> In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
>>>> can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
>>>> forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>>>> Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
>>>> back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
>>>> rally with his backhand.
>>>> This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
>>>> transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
>>>> insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
>>>> quickly of the backhand trap.
>>> The problem is that his FH is not what it used to be. Nadal ran down a
>>> bunch of DTL forehands and sent them back with interest. Basically, I
>>> don't think Fed has enough pace on ANY of his shots to bother Rafa
>>> anymore.
>> Yeah, he needs to seriously get down and polish his groundstroke game.
>> Mono is gone, he needs to concentrate. Most of all, he needs to stop
>> listening to Sampras and chuck that half-arsed stuff out of the window.
>
> Listening to Sampras is like asking a general from the last war how
> to fight the current war. Sampras, even if he wants to help, is only
> informed by the previous era of technique and power.
>


Yes, which would easily swamp Rafa on hc/grass.



 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:44:05
From: undecided
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com > wrote:
> Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE=
9PQ
>
> Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> rally with his backhand.
>
> This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> quickly of the backhand trap.

The problem is that his FH is not what it used to be. Nadal ran down a
bunch of DTL forehands and sent them back with interest. Basically, I
don't think Fed has enough pace on ANY of his shots to bother Rafa
anymore.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:40:17
From: Lax
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 11:35=A0am, drew <d...@technologist.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 11:08 am, Lax <Lax.Cla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It is a mental issue. =A0He is scared of Rafa, fullstop.
>
> It is a mental issue but it is borne out of fear that he is up against
> a guy who has the game to beat him.
>

Yes, which includes scars from previous beatings.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:35:29
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 11:21=A0am, "arnab.z@gmail" <arnab.zah...@gmail.com > wrote:
> wkhedr wrote:
> > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMW=
EE9PQ
>
> > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > rally with his backhand.
>
> > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > quickly of the backhand trap.
>
> Yeah, Federer needs to get out of the backhand trap as quickly is as
> possible against Nadal, except that he can't. He does the same with
> the rest of the tour. He plays most of the rallies on autopilot and
> when he decides to wake up and get aggressive, the other guy usually
> gives up, Federer wins the point and gets a positive feedback, and he
> gets accustomed to this kind of play. Except when he plays Nadal, then
> he is in deep shit. His usual choice about when to pick the right
> moment to get aggressive doesn't just work against Nadal. He tries to
> play Nadal the same semi-passive, semi-reactive way as he plays
> against eveybody else, and it doesn't work.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

This is why he needs to be more alert to this issue to take control
ealier. Nadal is fully alert about it.
As I said, if Federer wants to win, he needs to avoid being trapped in
his weak parts of his game.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:35:26
From: drew
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 11:08 am, Lax <Lax.Cla...@gmail.com > wrote:

> It is a mental issue. He is scared of Rafa, fullstop.

It is a mental issue but it is borne out of fear that he is up against
a guy who has the game to beat him.
>
> Nadal was there for the taking (due to Verdasco match), and Fed still
> coudln't do the job.

Nadal is #1 and he deserves it completely. He'll never have the
smooth execution of a guy like Federer but he has some other amazing
attributes that are equally admirable.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:32:36
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 11:29=A0am, drew <d...@technologist.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:59 am, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 9:28 am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUp=
MWEE9PQ
>
> > > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of hi=
s
> > > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> > > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> > > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > > rally with his backhand.
>
> > > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > > quickly of the backhand trap.
>
> > do you think Roche and Higueras were dummies? Rafa owns Fed in the
> > ground game, that's the main problem for Fed here. Fed would be scared
> > of Rafa's backhand now after the last match.
>
> Federer IS stubborn. =A0That's probably why he doesn't have a coach. =A0H=
e
> doesn't want advice and I think part-time coaches are probably the
> only way he goes when he thinks there is something he needs help with.
>
> I've been saying since before Federer had won even 6 majors that his
> backhand is a liability in as much as he cannot use it consistently as
> an offensive weapon.
>
> That's the trouble with most players and their one-handed backhands.
> They haven't developed the shot to be used as an offensive weapon.
> Gasquet is an exception. =A0There are probably others but he comes to
> mind immediately.
>
> It's difficult to change a successful game and it's potentially
> disastrous when you change your game just for the sake of trying to
> reverse a matchup problem. =A0You run the risk of creating problems that
> didn't exist previously.
>
> One-handed backhand fans are still a large percentage of tennis fans
> but it should be clear by now that the two-hander is worth learning
> and using.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree with everything you say except one thing which is Federer's
backhand is bad. Federer's backhand is good but sure it will be bad if
you are going to cancel the forehand and get trapped in the backhand
side for ever. This applies to any player including two-handed
backhand players.



 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:29:24
From: drew
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:59 am, tennis41...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:28 am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE9PQ
>
> > Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> > backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> > The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> > pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> > In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> > can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> > forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> > Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> > back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> > rally with his backhand.
>
> > This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> > transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> > insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> > quickly of the backhand trap.
>
> do you think Roche and Higueras were dummies? Rafa owns Fed in the
> ground game, that's the main problem for Fed here. Fed would be scared
> of Rafa's backhand now after the last match.


Federer IS stubborn. That's probably why he doesn't have a coach. He
doesn't want advice and I think part-time coaches are probably the
only way he goes when he thinks there is something he needs help with.

I've been saying since before Federer had won even 6 majors that his
backhand is a liability in as much as he cannot use it consistently as
an offensive weapon.

That's the trouble with most players and their one-handed backhands.
They haven't developed the shot to be used as an offensive weapon.
Gasquet is an exception. There are probably others but he comes to
mind immediately.

It's difficult to change a successful game and it's potentially
disastrous when you change your game just for the sake of trying to
reverse a matchup problem. You run the risk of creating problems that
didn't exist previously.

One-handed backhand fans are still a large percentage of tennis fans
but it should be clear by now that the two-hander is worth learning
and using.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:21:21
From: arnab.z@gmail
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side


wkhedr wrote:
> Look at this video: https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE9PQ
>
> Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> rally with his backhand.
>
> This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> quickly of the backhand trap.

Yeah, Federer needs to get out of the backhand trap as quickly is as
possible against Nadal, except that he can't. He does the same with
the rest of the tour. He plays most of the rallies on autopilot and
when he decides to wake up and get aggressive, the other guy usually
gives up, Federer wins the point and gets a positive feedback, and he
gets accustomed to this kind of play. Except when he plays Nadal, then
he is in deep shit. His usual choice about when to pick the right
moment to get aggressive doesn't just work against Nadal. He tries to
play Nadal the same semi-passive, semi-reactive way as he plays
against eveybody else, and it doesn't work.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:08:06
From: Lax
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:55=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:42=A0am, Lax <Lax.Cla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I saw many rallies like this in the match. =A0Federer had 10000
> > opportunities to hit forehands which he elected to hit with a
> > backhand. =A0I'm talking about shots where he wouldn't need much
> > footwork/movement to hit a forehand. =A0 He was shitting his pants,
> > plain and simple.
>
> I agree. This is not something that requires change to his game or
> many months of practice, it's too easy to do, not sure what happens to
> him when he plays Nadal, he thinks too much to the extent he is not in
> the match any more.
> Just having a coach pointing to him what he does wrong, get his mind
> on the right track will make a huge difference.

It is a mental issue. He is scared of Rafa, fullstop.

Nadal was there for the taking (due to Verdasco match), and Fed still
coudln't do the job.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 07:59:35
From:
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 9:28=A0am, wkhedr <wkh...@my-deja.com > wrote:
> Look at this video:https://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBRWGJHSyszeUpMWEE=
9PQ
>
> Nadal keeps hitting to Federer's backhand, and Federer is proud of his
> backhand (not bad), he keep hitting it back to Nadal's forehand.
>
> The question is for any aggressive player that doesn't want be under
> pressure: how do I get out of this trap and start my offense?
>
> In my opinion: a less risky deep backhand slice to Nadal's backhand
> can trigger the shift giving him time to take control with his
> forehand. And if he trusts his backhand dtl, he can go for it.
>
> Federer hit a backhand (dtl) to Nadal's backhand, Nadal hit the ball
> back to the middle of the court, what did Federer do? He resumed the
> rally with his backhand.
>
> This is where a coach can make a big difference for Federer. the
> transition game, using his strength to win and not to be stubborn and
> insist to exercise his weakness, and against Nadal, how to get out
> quickly of the backhand trap.

do you think Roche and Higueras were dummies? Rafa owns Fed in the
ground game, that's the main problem for Fed here. Fed would be scared
of Rafa's backhand now after the last match.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 07:55:43
From: wkhedr
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
On Feb 5, 10:42=A0am, Lax <Lax.Cla...@gmail.com > wrote:
> I saw many rallies like this in the match. =A0Federer had 10000
> opportunities to hit forehands which he elected to hit with a
> backhand. =A0I'm talking about shots where he wouldn't need much
> footwork/movement to hit a forehand. =A0 He was shitting his pants,
> plain and simple.

I agree. This is not something that requires change to his game or
many months of practice, it's too easy to do, not sure what happens to
him when he plays Nadal, he thinks too much to the extent he is not in
the match any more.
Just having a coach pointing to him what he does wrong, get his mind
on the right track will make a huge difference.



 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 07:42:09
From: Lax
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
I saw many rallies like this in the match. Federer had 10000
opportunities to hit forehands which he elected to hit with a
backhand. I'm talking about shots where he wouldn't need much
footwork/movement to hit a forehand. He was shitting his pants,
plain and simple.


  
Date: 06 Feb 2009 16:58:30
From: Whisper
Subject: Re: Federer trapped in his backhand side
Lax wrote:
> I saw many rallies like this in the match. Federer had 10000
> opportunities to hit forehands which he elected to hit with a
> backhand.

Unlikely, given there weren't 400 points in the whole match.