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Date: 02 Feb 2009 16:08:26
From: Scott
Subject: Roger's bh ROS
Jaros (of all people) was right. Roger needs a better return game,
particularly with his bh. Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and Roger
does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to favor
Rafa.

Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. (better
serving helps too.)

if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.




 
Date: 03 Feb 2009 03:08:26
From:
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On Feb 3, 12:52=A0am, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 7:40=A0pm, gregor...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Feb 3, 12:20=A0am, Patrick Kehoe <pke...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 2, 4:08=A0pm, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Jaros (of all people) was right. =A0Roger needs a better return gam=
e,
> > > > particularly with his bh. =A0Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and R=
oger
> > > > does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to fav=
or
> > > > Rafa.
>
> > > > Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. =A0 (better
> > > > serving helps too.)
>
> > > > if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.
>
> > > ++ His backhand won a lot of points... and set up a lot of points...
> > > he just needs to serve better...
>
> > Yeah, but it's also clear that there's a pattern on the backhand ROS.
> > Federer hits through every one against Nadal, whereas he chips nearly
> > every one against everyone else.
>
> so your opinion is that Roger is being aggressive enough already with
> his bh ROS? =A0(great post, by the way.)
>
> if Pete were out there playing Rafa he'd probably go for a winner with
> every bh return. =A0It doesn't seem to me that Roger's aggressive enough
> on that shot.

No, I think he is not aggressive enough (maybe that didn't come out in
my post). He needs to get away from the same shot all the time - at
least mix it up with some big cuts from time to time





 
Date: 03 Feb 2009 03:05:43
From:
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On Feb 3, 1:27=A0am, "andrew.r...@gmail.com" <andrew.r...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Feb 2, 4:40 pm, gregor...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > - run around the backhand and hit an agressive forehand. This was a
> > big shot for Federer early in his career but it's drifted out of his
> > game as he didn't need it playing right-handers who mainly kicked the
> > second serve into his backhand - the chip return works for that. This
> > shot is of course risky but has worked against Nadal even when used
> > sparingly.
>
> I thought one of his biggest problems - really, the biggest aside from
> the mental issues - was that he used this far TOO sparingly. I think
> everytime he stepped around and got his racket on the ball, it was a
> winner. But he did this maybe two or three times ALL MATCH. Why he
> didn't take one of those swings on the numerous break opportunities he
> had is beyond me.

It's a mindset issue - on break points Federer doesn't want to go for
a big winner on return in case he misses it. He then thinks "Damn, I
should have just got the ball back in play".

By contrast Sampras would go for the shot and wouldn't worry about
missing. That was the way he played - a higher risk game as he said.
But he had the knowledge of a great serve to fall back on so he could
afford to take more chances.



 
Date: 03 Feb 2009 00:34:30
From: ghell666
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On 3 Feb, 00:08, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Jaros (of all people) was right. =A0Roger needs a better return game,
> particularly with his bh. =A0Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and Roger
> does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to favor
> Rafa.
>
> Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. =A0 (better
> serving helps too.)
>
> if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.

Isnt it obvious ?

HIs backhand half the time ends up in the service box - hell even good
club player could probably hit a winner if not put himself in winning
position from that.

I suspect - because his movement and forehand have been so good for
him that most have bee too fearful of fully taking it on but Nadal has
the strokes and better movement ...

I mean some of those backhand were just directed blocks - almost
perfect puaways for Nadal.




 
Date: 02 Feb 2009 20:04:23
From: Patrick Kehoe
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On Feb 2, 5:07=A0pm, Lax <Lax.Cla...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 7:20=A0pm, Patrick Kehoe <pke...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 2, 4:08=A0pm, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Jaros (of all people) was right. =A0Roger needs a better return game,
> > > particularly with his bh. =A0Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and Rog=
er
> > > does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to favor
> > > Rafa.
>
> > > Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. =A0 (better
> > > serving helps too.)
>
> > > if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.
>
> > ++ His backhand won a lot of points... and set up a lot of points...
> > he just needs to serve better...
>
> Just serving better would have beat the Nadal that played that day,
> but not a fresher Nadal.
> Fed's ROS against Nadal is horrible. =A0The amount of unreturnables is
> huge (especially at Wimbledon).
> The ones he does get back are weak and short usually.
>
> Problem for Fed is that he uses the slice return against everyone else
> but this is nullified by Nadal's forehand. =A0Fed needs to practice the
> topspin backhand return against other players at smaller tournaments.

++ Fair enough... and yet on those rare times when Fed has served
really well he HAS beaten Nadal... he's NEVER served well at the FO
against Nadal... too many periods of missed first serves... add those
points to the mix and his serve holds up and then the pressure moves
over to Rafa... I do agree that Federer hasn't attacked Nadal's serve
at all even when he KNOW 85% of the time where it's going... against
anyone one else he'd crush them with that level of predictability...
not the great Rafa however... just mindboggling...

P


 
Date: 02 Feb 2009 17:48:04
From: robin
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On 3 Feb, 01:01, "WAY2GOOD" <way2g...@wtg.com > wrote:
> Patrick Kehoe" <pke...@telus.net> wrote in message
>
> news:9401c11a-a20d-4d64-8da3-a6c0a55c3cf9@f40g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 2, 4:08 pm, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Jaros (of all people) was right. Roger needs a better return game,
> > particularly with his bh. Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and Roger
> > does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to favor
> > Rafa.
>
> > Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. (better
> > serving helps too.)
>
> > if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.
> >++ His backhand won a lot of points... and set up a lot of points...
> >he just needs to serve better...
>
> LOL. =A0He always needs to do something "better." =A0Face it,
> RAFA owns FEDDY.

Strange, you criticise Federer's generation for not trying to find
ways to beat him, yet you are dismissive of the idea of Federer trying
to find ways to beat Nadal.


  
Date: 02 Feb 2009 21:23:39
From: WAY2GOOD
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
"robin" <robinson.neil@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:2c89c9c0-3bec-44a0-a9cc-6b47d955c410@a39g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
On 3 Feb, 01:01, "WAY2GOOD" <way2g...@wtg.com > wrote:

> > if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.
> >++ His backhand won a lot of points... and set up a lot of points...
> >he just needs to serve better...
>
> LOL. He always needs to do something "better." Face it,
> RAFA owns FEDDY.

>Strange, you criticise Federer's generation for not trying to find
>ways to beat him, yet you are dismissive of the idea of Federer trying
>to find ways to beat Nadal.

No, you are wrong. I am dismissive of FEDERITE attempts to
"find ways to beat Nadal" after the fact. There's a big
difference. If you look at some of my other recent posts,
I say that someone like Gil Reyes could help FEDDY.
I'm not against this. It would be interesting to see FEDDY
try something new.





 
Date: 02 Feb 2009 17:27:00
From: andrew.reys@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On Feb 2, 4:40 pm, gregor...@hotmail.com wrote:
> - run around the backhand and hit an agressive forehand. This was a
> big shot for Federer early in his career but it's drifted out of his
> game as he didn't need it playing right-handers who mainly kicked the
> second serve into his backhand - the chip return works for that. This
> shot is of course risky but has worked against Nadal even when used
> sparingly.

I thought one of his biggest problems - really, the biggest aside from
the mental issues - was that he used this far TOO sparingly. I think
everytime he stepped around and got his racket on the ball, it was a
winner. But he did this maybe two or three times ALL MATCH. Why he
didn't take one of those swings on the numerous break opportunities he
had is beyond me.


 
Date: 02 Feb 2009 17:07:27
From: Lax
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On Feb 2, 7:20=A0pm, Patrick Kehoe <pke...@telus.net > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 4:08=A0pm, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Jaros (of all people) was right. =A0Roger needs a better return game,
> > particularly with his bh. =A0Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and Roger
> > does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to favor
> > Rafa.
>
> > Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. =A0 (better
> > serving helps too.)
>
> > if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.
>
> ++ His backhand won a lot of points... and set up a lot of points...
> he just needs to serve better...
>

Just serving better would have beat the Nadal that played that day,
but not a fresher Nadal.
Fed's ROS against Nadal is horrible. The amount of unreturnables is
huge (especially at Wimbledon).
The ones he does get back are weak and short usually.

Problem for Fed is that he uses the slice return against everyone else
but this is nullified by Nadal's forehand. Fed needs to practice the
topspin backhand return against other players at smaller tournaments.


 
Date: 02 Feb 2009 16:52:09
From: Scott
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On Feb 2, 7:40=A0pm, gregor...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 3, 12:20=A0am, Patrick Kehoe <pke...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 2, 4:08=A0pm, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Jaros (of all people) was right. =A0Roger needs a better return game,
> > > particularly with his bh. =A0Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and Rog=
er
> > > does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to favor
> > > Rafa.
>
> > > Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. =A0 (better
> > > serving helps too.)
>
> > > if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.
>
> > ++ His backhand won a lot of points... and set up a lot of points...
> > he just needs to serve better...
>
> Yeah, but it's also clear that there's a pattern on the backhand ROS.
> Federer hits through every one against Nadal, whereas he chips nearly
> every one against everyone else.
>
so your opinion is that Roger is being aggressive enough already with
his bh ROS? (great post, by the way.)

if Pete were out there playing Rafa he'd probably go for a winner with
every bh return. It doesn't seem to me that Roger's aggressive enough
on that shot.




 
Date: 02 Feb 2009 16:40:25
From:
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On Feb 3, 12:20=A0am, Patrick Kehoe <pke...@telus.net > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 4:08=A0pm, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Jaros (of all people) was right. =A0Roger needs a better return game,
> > particularly with his bh. =A0Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and Roger
> > does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to favor
> > Rafa.
>
> > Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. =A0 (better
> > serving helps too.)
>
> > if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.
>
> ++ His backhand won a lot of points... and set up a lot of points...
> he just needs to serve better...

Yeah, but it's also clear that there's a pattern on the backhand ROS.
Federer hits through every one against Nadal, whereas he chips nearly
every one against everyone else.

Most of these returns hit the service line because it's hard to get
depth on that shot when the ball is swinging away from you - Nadal
knows what is coming and starts the rally as normal. Now on break
points, Nadal basically decides that he is not going to make an
unforced error, so the return has to do something more than just get
it back in play. Federer is desparately hoping to get into a position
to have a go at a big shot and he can't really do it since he doesn't
really have the initiative in the rally.

There are other options which could work better:
- stand back further and take a bigger swipe at the backhand to force
Nadal back, and then move up to the baseline to take advantage. Murray
did this successfully in the USO SF.
- chip the return deep to Nadal's bh corner, even if it has little
pace. The key element against Nadal is length not pace. This could
force a defensive shot by Nadal if played well, but if not played well
produces a setup for Nadal.
- chip-and-charge - risky, and probably only an option from the deuce
court due to the swinging serve. Nadal can miss passing shots if
rushed - this could work if used well.
- run around the backhand and hit an agressive forehand. This was a
big shot for Federer early in his career but it's drifted out of his
game as he didn't need it playing right-handers who mainly kicked the
second serve into his backhand - the chip return works for that. This
shot is of course risky but has worked against Nadal even when used
sparingly. This could force Nadal into error on serve if he thinks
Federer is going to punish his second serve - at the moment he doesn't
fear missing his first serve since he knows Federer won't harm him
directly off the second serve return.

Better serving would help Federer of course, but being more aggressive
on his returns would make a difference as well.







 
Date: 02 Feb 2009 16:20:53
From: Patrick Kehoe
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
On Feb 2, 4:08=A0pm, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Jaros (of all people) was right. =A0Roger needs a better return game,
> particularly with his bh. =A0Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and Roger
> does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to favor
> Rafa.
>
> Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. =A0 (better
> serving helps too.)
>
> if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.

++ His backhand won a lot of points... and set up a lot of points...
he just needs to serve better...

P



  
Date: 02 Feb 2009 20:01:14
From: WAY2GOOD
Subject: Re: Roger's bh ROS
Patrick Kehoe" <pkehoe@telus.net > wrote in message
news:9401c11a-a20d-4d64-8da3-a6c0a55c3cf9@f40g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 2, 4:08 pm, Scott <scott...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Jaros (of all people) was right. Roger needs a better return game,
> particularly with his bh. Once Nadal serves to Roger's bh, and Roger
> does little more than put it back in play, everything begins to favor
> Rafa.
>
> Roger has to turn his bh ROS into an offensive weapon. (better
> serving helps too.)
>
> if he can do that, he's got a stronger chance.

>++ His backhand won a lot of points... and set up a lot of points...
>he just needs to serve better...

LOL. He always needs to do something "better." Face it,
RAFA owns FEDDY.