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Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. |
On 15 Mar 2005 16:49:18 -0800, "Cain" <indelibo@gmail.com > wrote: >Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage >tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. Playing it safe. -- Thank you, Adelphia, for demanding $120 more a year for The Tennis Channel! |
Cain wrote: > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. 95% of the time, I'm sure it's true that if you keep the ball in the court 51% of the time and your opponent keeps it in 49% of the time, you'll win. As you make it more difficult for your opponent to return your shot, you make it more difficult for yourself as well. The more effective the shot, the more difficult it is to make. Some shots that are almost always winners have a very low margin for error. Drop shots, for instance. It is impossible to cover the entire court all of the time. If you can hit the extreme edges of the court time after time without missing, you can win easily. The trouble is, that is almost impossible to do. A ball one inch out might as well be a mile out. You get nothing for such an effort. |
Erich wrote: > > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage > > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > > It refers to making a high percentage of shots without errors, ie playing > (relatively) safe. You will often hear it mentioned on a break-point. If a > player is just playing it safe hoping for an error from the opponent, it's > called percentage tennis. It's not always a good tactic, but that's another > story. You guys are confusing 'percentage shot' with 'percentage tennis'. The first is about shot selection that gives 90% probablility of landing and the other is about winning the entire match via a strategy that allows you to win 51% of points. Percentage tennis implies aggressive tennis. |
<blanders0604@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:1110998812.443788.134710@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > > Erich wrote: > > > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing > percentage > > > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > > > > It refers to making a high percentage of shots without errors, ie > playing > > (relatively) safe. You will often hear it mentioned on a break-point. > If a > > player is just playing it safe hoping for an error from the opponent, > it's > > called percentage tennis. It's not always a good tactic, but that's > another > > story. > > You guys are confusing 'percentage shot' with 'percentage tennis'. The > first is about shot selection that gives 90% probablility of landing > and the other is about winning the entire match via a strategy that > allows you to win 51% of points. Percentage tennis implies aggressive > tennis. It's true that for a minority of players, percentage tennis can refer to aggressive play. For a Henman or Rusedski, attacking the net would qualify, as their baseline games are quite weak, particularly in Rusedski's case, but most of the time when commentators refer to percentage tennis, they will mean what I and a few other people described it as. |
Whisper wrote: > Cain wrote: > > > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage > > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > > > > > Bumrooting. ?? I think you have it wrong. Percentage tennis is s-v, not bumrooting. The emphasis is not to hit the highest percentage of balls back over safely, but to win on the percentages based playing smart, aggressive tennis and employing the geometries of the court effectively. The percentage game allows for a relatively high percentage of errors and missess vs. the 'bumrooter' game which is about hitting low risk, or high percentage shots. That's different. The aggressive player understands intuitively that they do NOT need to touch every ball or put every shot back over the net, and that they will be passed at the net frequently. This player is relying on the 'percentages' of winning more points than losing, and thus win the match. Where the bumrooter would become disenchanted very quickly at the prospect of not get his racquet on a very high percentage of balls, the aggressive player knows that 51% is usually enough and does not dwell on missess or passers. The bumrooter may be playing the high percentage shots, they are not playing the 'percentage game'. That definition is generally reserved for s-v'rs. |
blanders0604@hotmail.com wrote: > Whisper wrote: > >>Cain wrote: >> >> >>>Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing > > percentage > >>>tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. >>> >> >> >>Bumrooting. > > > ?? I think you have it wrong. Percentage tennis is s-v, not > bumrooting. The emphasis is not to hit the highest percentage of balls > back over safely, but to win on the percentages based playing smart, > aggressive tennis and employing the geometries of the court > effectively. The percentage game allows for a relatively high > percentage of errors and missess vs. the 'bumrooter' game which is > about hitting low risk, or high percentage shots. That's different. > The aggressive player understands intuitively that they do NOT need to > touch every ball or put every shot back over the net, and that they > will be passed at the net frequently. This player is relying on the > 'percentages' of winning more points than losing, and thus win the > match. Where the bumrooter would become disenchanted very quickly at > the prospect of not get his racquet on a very high percentage of balls, > the aggressive player knows that 51% is usually enough and does not > dwell on missess or passers. The bumrooter may be playing the high > percentage shots, they are not playing the 'percentage game'. That > definition is generally reserved for s-v'rs. > Sure - 'percentage tennis' has a negative connotation - I was looking at it from that angle. But yes, the above is also spot on.... |
>Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage >tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. Intellegent tennis |
kurtz wrote: >>Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage >>tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > > > Intellegent tennis > ie low rating tennis - eg FO. |
> >Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage > >tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > > Intellegent tennis ... given the right circumstances. |
Cain wrote: > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > Bumrooting. |
"Whisper" <beaver999@ozemail.com.au > wrote in message news:f_TZd.390$TV4.4851@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au... > Cain wrote: > >> Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage >> tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. >> > > > Bumrooting. Yes, that's the most precise definition :) |
> Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. It refers to making a high percentage of shots without errors, ie playing (relatively) safe. You will often hear it mentioned on a break-point. If a player is just playing it safe hoping for an error from the opponent, it's called percentage tennis. It's not always a good tactic, but that's another story. |
Erich wrote: > <blanders0604@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1110998812.443788.134710@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > > > > Erich wrote: > > > > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing > > percentage > > > > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > > > > > > It refers to making a high percentage of shots without errors, ie > > playing > > > (relatively) safe. You will often hear it mentioned on a break-point. > > If a > > > player is just playing it safe hoping for an error from the opponent, > > it's > > > called percentage tennis. It's not always a good tactic, but that's > > another > > > story. > > > > You guys are confusing 'percentage shot' with 'percentage tennis'. The > > first is about shot selection that gives 90% probablility of landing > > and the other is about winning the entire match via a strategy that > > allows you to win 51% of points. Percentage tennis implies aggressive > > tennis. > > It's true that for a minority of players, percentage tennis can refer to > aggressive play. For a Henman or Rusedski, attacking the net would qualify, > as their baseline games are quite weak, You see, traditionally baseline play *was* weak compared to finishing points at net. Big racquets combined with the evolution of groundstroke style that they enabled have changed all that. Very few now at the top levels can win the percentages by playing the 'percentages game' of s-v. Still, the s-v strategy is a percentages approach whether it is successful or not. I am a purist. The term must be preserved for its original meaning or I am quitting this ng. |
Erich wrote: > <blanders0604@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1110998812.443788.134710@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > > > > Erich wrote: > > > > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing > > percentage > > > > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > > > > > > It refers to making a high percentage of shots without errors, ie > > playing > > > (relatively) safe. You will often hear it mentioned on a break-point. > > If a > > > player is just playing it safe hoping for an error from the opponent, > > it's > > > called percentage tennis. It's not always a good tactic, but that's > > another > > > story. > > > > You guys are confusing 'percentage shot' with 'percentage tennis'. The > > first is about shot selection that gives 90% probablility of landing > > and the other is about winning the entire match via a strategy that > > allows you to win 51% of points. Percentage tennis implies aggressive > > tennis. > > It's true that for a minority of players, percentage tennis can refer to > aggressive play. For a Henman or Rusedski, attacking the net would qualify, > as their baseline games are quite weak, particularly in Rusedski's case, but > most of the time when commentators refer to percentage tennis, they will > mean what I and a few other people described it as. I hope you are wrong about the conventional understanding of the term, but it would not surprise me given the baseline era we are now in. What you are referring to is 'percentage shot selection', not 'percentage tennis". I think the experts do know the difference. There are no either/ors about the historical definition of the term percentage tennis: Percentage tennis describes the strategy designed to win the percentages over the course of a match, not hitting shots that give a 90% chance of clearing the net and landing inbounds. Quite the contrary, although a good percentage player needs to play safe and rally as needed. The percentage player has historically being a s-v player because that was the only way you could really take it to your opponent. Sampras could actually play percentage tennis off the ground because he had the weapons and mentality that he could. He wasn't looking to win every point. He was looking to win the percentages. Get it? Percentage tennis takes more balls than hitting percentage shots. |
"Cain" <indelibo@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1110934158.125319.109120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. Playing percentage tennis involves 2 aspects: 1) Yourself - you make shots you are most comfortable with and good at which will result in least unforced errors. If you think topspin at moderate pace is your most consistent shot, do it more often then. Or when your opponent hits a low ball to your forehand side and you happen to have 10% success in hitting it back with a drive fh and 90% success with slice fh, then you opt for the slice fh even though it's defensive. More examples: a) Graf most of the time would slice on the back hand side simply because she was playing percentage tennis on that side - it was the type of shot that she was most confident of hitting in any situation without making unforced errors. If none of the women could effectively capitalize on that, hell, she saw no need to improve on her backhand drive. That said, Graf overall was not a percentage player, in fact a risky player because she had a huge effective weapon on the fh side. b) Michael Change was a pure percentage player. On both sides, he would hit safe but effective topspin shots until his opponent made the errors. 2) Your opponent - you hit the ball that you think your opponent is least confident of handling, this may include what kind of spin you impart on the ball, the position your opponent most likely would become defensive, etc...etc. Examples: a) Due to Seles' double-fistes groundstrokes on both sides, her opponent would try to hit the ball with less topspin to keep the ball low. Low ball is generally difficult for double-handers to effectively attack. Martinez failed to do that to Seles because she simply didn't have the skills to hit less topspin consistently. b) Seles was extremely dangerous when she was inside the court but when she was pinned at the baseline, her shots became less offensive hence her opponents would try to hit the shot as deep as possible. c) Graf's opponents would serve to her backhand side because she could mostly chip her return on that side but for Seles, it would a mix-it up serve to keep her guessing. That's percentage tennis. Percentage tennis is boring because of consistency and predictability. However it's the best weapon when you are down or against risky players. |
quick_ice wrote: > "Cain" <indelibo@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1110934158.125319.109120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage > > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > > Playing percentage tennis involves 2 aspects: > 1) Yourself - you make shots you are most comfortable with and good at > which will result in least unforced errors. If you think topspin at moderate > pace is your most consistent shot, do it more often then. Or when your > opponent hits a low ball to your forehand side and you happen to have 10% > success in hitting it back with a drive fh and 90% success with slice fh, > then you opt for the slice fh even though it's defensive. > > More examples: > a) Graf most of the time would slice on the back hand side simply because > she was playing percentage tennis on that side - it was the type of shot > that she was most confident of hitting in any situation without making > unforced errors. If none of the women could effectively capitalize on that, > hell, she saw no need to improve on her backhand drive. That said, Graf > overall was not a percentage player, in fact a risky player because she had > a huge effective weapon on the fh side. > b) Michael Change was a pure percentage player. On both sides, he would hit > safe but effective topspin shots until his opponent made the errors. > > 2) Your opponent - you hit the ball that you think your opponent is least > confident of handling, this may include what kind of spin you impart on the > ball, the position your opponent most likely would become defensive, > etc...etc. > > Examples: > a) Due to Seles' double-fistes groundstrokes on both sides, her opponent > would try to hit the ball with less topspin to keep the ball low. Low ball > is generally difficult for double-handers to effectively attack. Martinez > failed to do that to Seles because she simply didn't have the skills to hit > less topspin consistently. > b) Seles was extremely dangerous when she was inside the court but when she > was pinned at the baseline, her shots became less offensive hence her > opponents would try to hit the shot as deep as possible. > c) Graf's opponents would serve to her backhand side because she could > mostly chip her return on that side but for Seles, it would a mix-it up > serve to keep her guessing. That's percentage tennis. > > Percentage tennis is boring because of consistency and predictability. > However it's the best weapon when you are down or against risky players. You have provided yet another description of 'high percentage tennis shot selection', not 'percentage tennis' as it has been traditionally defined as as 'strategy'. Its an important nuance that I feel compelled to drive home to this ng. Its pretty much the opposite of what most people here seem to think, which is a bit surprising in a tennis group. A percentage tennis strategy relies first and foremost on holding serve. Back in the old days, singles was more like doubles in that it was often the first guy to take control of the net that won, so percentage tennis has been generally associated with s-v. Doubles, when played properly, is 'percentage tennis'. On returns, a percentage singles player is apt to 'go for it' a bit, letting most return games go without getting bogged down trying to break via long points hitting 'high percentage' shots. He knows that the server will hold most of the time on their own terms, so he will force the action. They will chip/charge, go for broke or look to come in at the first opportunity in the rally--force the action. The percentage player won't really buckle down on the return game until he goes up 0-30 or 15-40 because they understand the percentages are heavily against them on an even game score when returning. Sampras was the ultimate percentage player. He had so much confidence in holding serve, that he could let it rip, or c/c on return games knowing that sooner or later the 'percentages' would work in his favor and that he generally needed just one break. Percentage tennis is not boring, its very exciting because the practicioner is forcing the action. People talk about Sampras being inconsistent off the ground. Well, relative to his ability to punish with his groundstrokes, he was actually very consistent. Had he not been, he would not have been the best percentage player that ever lived. Sampras hitting his huge down-the-line backhand was a low percentage individual shot when compared to Coria looping the ball back cross-court, but Sampras could still win the match on the percentages of points won--hitting much more spectacular shots in the process I might add. Percentage tennis is more about 51%, not 90%. |
I hear you but that's not what I have understood about percentage tennis. I'm not totally ruling out your definition though. Could you please provide me a link or something to substantiate your definition? <blanders0604@hotmail.com > wrote in message > You have provided yet another description of 'high percentage tennis > shot selection', not 'percentage tennis' as it has been traditionally > defined as as 'strategy'. Its an important nuance that I feel > compelled to drive home to this ng. Its pretty much the opposite of > what most people here seem to think, which is a bit surprising in a > tennis group. > > A percentage tennis strategy relies first and foremost on holding > serve. Back in the old days, singles was more like doubles in that it > was often the first guy to take control of the net that won, so > percentage tennis has been generally associated with s-v. Doubles, > when played properly, is 'percentage tennis'. On returns, a percentage > singles player is apt to 'go for it' a bit, letting most return games > go without getting bogged down trying to break via long points hitting > 'high percentage' shots. He knows that the server will hold most of > the time on their own terms, so he will force the action. They will > chip/charge, go for broke or look to come in at the first opportunity > in the rally--force the action. The percentage player won't really > buckle down on the return game until he goes up 0-30 or 15-40 because > they understand the percentages are heavily against them on an even > game score when returning. Sampras was the ultimate percentage player. > He had so much confidence in holding serve, that he could let it rip, > or c/c on return games knowing that sooner or later the 'percentages' > would work in his favor and that he generally needed just one break. > Percentage tennis is not boring, its very exciting because the > practicioner is forcing the action. > > People talk about Sampras being inconsistent off the ground. Well, > relative to his ability to punish with his groundstrokes, he was > actually very consistent. Had he not been, he would not have been the > best percentage player that ever lived. Sampras hitting his huge > down-the-line backhand was a low percentage individual shot when > compared to Coria looping the ball back cross-court, but Sampras could > still win the match on the percentages of points won--hitting much more > spectacular shots in the process I might add. Percentage tennis is more > about 51%, not 90%. > |
quick_ice wrote: > I hear you but that's not what I have understood about percentage tennis. > I'm not totally ruling out your definition though. Could you please provide > me a link or something to substantiate your definition? A quick look and I found these excerpts from Jack Kramer's book: http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer_index.html Go to the section, 'Percentage tennis, and Forest Hills'. I could have wrote that myself, but that is the way I was taught to play tennis once I have achieved a certain level, and for me it made perfect sense. |
Thanks but I feel that's not a conventional definition of percentage tennis. I tend to agree more with this one: http://www.tennisserver.com/turbo/turbo_97_2a.html <blanders0604@hotmail.com > wrote in message > A quick look and I found these excerpts from Jack Kramer's book: > > http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer_index.html > > Go to the section, 'Percentage tennis, and Forest Hills'. I could have > wrote that myself, but that is the way I was taught to play tennis once > I have achieved a certain level, and for me it made perfect sense. > |
quick_ice wrote: > Thanks but I feel that's not a conventional definition of percentage tennis. > I tend to agree more with this one: > http://www.tennisserver.com/turbo/turbo_97_2a.html > It's not conventional? Its the traditional definition. Kramer wrote about it way before this USPTR chooch you have cited. Just because this guy teaches tennis, does not mean he knows much, nor does it give him the right to re-define a term understood by generations of players. He is writing about 'high' percentage tennis, and is too thick to understand the nuance that makes that different from simply "percentage tennis". Its called 'dumbing down'. |
Thanks for pointing out that what I have understood all along about "percentage tennis" is actually "high percentage tennis". While I'm not convinced yet about that but I'm not about to disregard your points because I probably might have missed something. Guess I have to do some research. Interesting. <blanders0604@hotmail.com > wrote in message > It's not conventional? Its the traditional definition. Kramer wrote > about it way before this USPTR chooch you have cited. Just because > this guy teaches tennis, does not mean he knows much, nor does it give > him the right to re-define a term understood by generations of players. > He is writing about 'high' percentage tennis, and is too thick to > understand the nuance that makes that different from simply "percentage > tennis". Its called 'dumbing down'. > |
quick_ice wrote: > Thanks but I feel that's not a conventional definition of percentage tennis. > I tend to agree more with this one: > http://www.tennisserver.com/turbo/turbo_97_2a.html > > <blanders0604@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > A quick look and I found these excerpts from Jack Kramer's book: > > > > http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer_index.html > > > > Go to the section, 'Percentage tennis, and Forest Hills'. I could have > > wrote that myself, but that is the way I was taught to play tennis once > > I have achieved a certain level, and for me it made perfect sense. > > Both of these descriptions of 'percentage tennis' have vailidity. |
That's far too rational and reasoned for rst. Happy researching. quick_ice wrote: > Thanks for pointing out that what I have understood all along about > "percentage tennis" is actually "high percentage tennis". While I'm not > convinced yet about that but I'm not about to disregard your points because > I probably might have missed something. Guess I have to do some research. > Interesting. > > <blanders0604@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > It's not conventional? Its the traditional definition. Kramer wrote > > about it way before this USPTR chooch you have cited. Just because > > this guy teaches tennis, does not mean he knows much, nor does it give > > him the right to re-define a term understood by generations of players. > > He is writing about 'high' percentage tennis, and is too thick to > > understand the nuance that makes that different from simply "percentage > > tennis". Its called 'dumbing down'. > > |
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com wrote: > Cain wrote: > > Can someone please explain what does it mean to be playing percentage > > tennis? I hear it often but I don't understand what it means. > > 95% of the time, I'm sure it's true that if you keep the ball in the > court 51% of the time and your opponent keeps it in 49% of the time, > you'll win. > > As you make it more difficult for your opponent to return your shot, > you make it more difficult for yourself as well. > > The more effective the shot, the more difficult it is to make. Some > shots that are almost always winners have a very low margin for error. > Drop shots, for instance. It is impossible to cover the entire court > all of the time. If you can hit the extreme edges of the court time > after time without missing, you can win easily. The trouble is, that is > almost impossible to do. A ball one inch out might as well be a mile > out. You get nothing for such an effort. When I am playing and things are not going well, I try to play the "percentage game", i.e. slow down, get the ball in - if the ball is in, your still in the game! |